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Why I don't like my ILs


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#1 WhichWayU

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 09:54 PM

It's not because of the way they treated me.  It's not because of they way they treated my daughters.  I don't like my ILs because of the way they treated my husband.  I can get over immaturity, insecurity-based lash outs, games and manipulations directed at me; that, I could and did forgive and mostly forget. They're basically fools and so I was able to expect not much more than foolishness from them.  But as long as my husband is hurt by his parents, I hurt for him.  I can forgive what's done to me...but for me it's much harder for me to forgive what's done to someone I love so much.

 

Yes they raised the man I love.  But I saw for myself how they poorly treated him.  After I learned just how much their actions didn't just annoy but hurt the love of my life, and that he was done with them, I felt I could be done with them.  Maybe it's overblown loyalty.

 

Mom2 made me think when she posted about why she doesn't like her ODD's BoyFriend. It's because ODD told Mom2 how the guy did some awful things to ODD.  He cheated on her, he wasn't there for her when she was ill enough to be hospitalized, he sexts with other women, etc.  Mom2's ODD has forgiven and forgotten what her own BF did to her, and now expects her Mom2 to do the same.  And of course Mom2 doesn't have the good times with ODD's BF that ODD has, in order to build back the good will towards him. 

 

I wonder how many DS' told their wives (DILs) some horror or "horror" stories from their childhood that later affected the DIL-MIL relationship.  Tales that range from outright abuse to what the DIL might see as neglect (including medical neglect) to plain old perceived sibling favoritism. Exchanging childhood stories is something new couples do.  And the stories may keep coming, especially after the couple has their own children togther.   But before the girlfriend/DIL even meets her future ILs, she may resent what she thinks they did "to" the man she loves.  And she doesn't have the rest of the good memories the DS does to balance the whole picture.

 

And while the DS may have completely forgiven his parents for the ancient stories he shares with his new girlfriend/wife/mother of his children and come to the place where he accepts 'they did the best they could with what they had at the time", the girlfriend/DIL/new mother upon hearig the stories might not be able to let go so easily. Not for years, if ever.  And if DIL is suffering from the mess, she may never forgive her MIL.  I know an otherwise sweet woman (a MIL herself) who got along well enough with her MIL - until her husband got skin cancers.  Now she openly and rather viciously blames her MIL because she didn't protect him from childhood sunburns.  (Interestingly she still likes her FIL, who also failed to protect him from the sun).   Every chance she gets: "My MIL gave my husband skin cancer."  She also gave him life, but apparently that doesn't count.

 

Seems to me a DS story that goes "my dad beat me" can be instantly translated into "his mom didn't protect him from being beat."  And that MIL may never catch a break from that DIL. Even a common story like "My mom thought my younger brother could do no wrong so I got punished every time he did something." or what could be a completely subjective story like "I was always compared to my older brother and reminded how I never measured up to him."   Or one I heard recently "My parents paid for my sisters college and ran out of money by the time I was in school so I'm the only one in student debt."  Those could tap into a sibling-rivalry issue the DIL has of her own, or just seem so wrong to the DIL that it may take years of seeing for herself that the MIL does love and is kind to her son, for DIL to be able to see the MIL with clear eyes.

 

It may not be fair. But it happens and I wonder how often it happens.  When a DIL is beachy to everyone, she is may be just a beach.  But when an otherwise decent woman of a DIL seems to target her husband's parents out of the gate, parents who are perfectly nice people and do treat her well enough, it may be for reasons other than her insecurity or selfishness or her just being a DILFH.  I wonder how often it might be a certain sense of "loyalty" and old pillow talk coming back to haunt.


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#2 Eowyn

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 10:07 PM

This is super interesting WWU! I would like it if I could (can we please get some extra likes somehow?)

 

Something funny about my situation with the IL's is that, initially,  my husband never once told me about the things they did. It came out through his sisters. They'd be talking about some awesome family thing they did...where was Faramir?...oh he'd already been sent to couch surf so his parents wouldn't have to fly him home in the summer....or oh, remember that time Faramir got Life Threatening Disease? Oh yeah Mom was so mad the nanny was at the hospital with him she had to make dinner!!! Haha!!! She almost fired the nanny but then she'd have had to take care of Faramir too!!! Haha! Remember that Milestone Event of Faramir's that OSIL ruined? Wasn't that HILARIOUS????

 

Then it was seeing it for myself. Seeing how he turned from grown man to eager to please toddler in the presence of my ILs. See how he'd look to them desperately for approval/affection and get...nothing. Something that should have set the nuclear alarm siren off was when we got engaged his parents kept talking about how happy they were that Faramir found such a beautiful, accomplished, successful girl from such a good family blah blah blah blah WHAT ABOUT SOMEONE WHO LOVES HIM AND MAKES HIM HAPPY??????? Why should it matter if I'm the hunchback of Notre Dame with a middle school level education born to Mr. and Mrs. Noone from Nowhere IF I MAKE YOUR SON HAPPY? It's because his happiness truly does not matter to them, not nearly as much as appearances. Heaven forbid he give them an un-presentable daughter in law. It would be almost as bad as getting a B+.

 

You're right WWU. They may never get a break from me.



#3 Elaine1954

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 10:48 PM

Eowyn, your ILS thought they were saying positive things about you, maybe that's the best they could do. They only can say what they see. They don't know how you feel and how Faramir feels. I would never comment on whether ODIL loves ODS. I think she does, she acts as though she does but how do I know for sure. These are the attributes they noticed about you yourself. You are right, they will never catch a break from you.

#4 NewMama

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 11:19 PM

Hmm, interesting topic WWU.

I met my husband fresh off his parent's split. My parents split when I was very young, and always did a really good job of not putting us in the middle (except for the crazy stuff mom pulled around our wedding). We never grew up listening to our parents talk bad about each other, there were never lawyers, child support and visitation were decided between them. It was normal to me but now I know just how fortunate we were.

DH was a young adult, his parent moved out of their home and left him with just a mattress, and eventually he had to turn the keys of his home over to new owners. He's mentioned more than once that it was probably the worst moment of his life. His parents would bicker about their financial settlement through DH, making him pass messages along to one another. He knows details of their settlement I really feel he has no business knowing. We broke up a couple times early in our relationship because his parents left him with the view that all relationships end badly, so we might as well break up before we hate each other. This was before I ever met either of them, my first sort of exposure to them was seeing all this. My normally very unflappable husband was curled up in a fetal position having a panic attack over the prospect of his parents being in the same room for our wedding.

I think that's part of the reason all this business with MIL's inability to share DS really hits a raw nerve with a me. Putting him and us in the middle really makes me angry, especially when I still see that my dad, stepmom and mother are willing to play nice with everyone for our sake. It really brings out the mama-bear in me, in a I will NOT let you do that to my child kind of way. And they probably have no idea how DH really felt or that he even shared those things with me.

#5 BSW

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 11:39 PM

You always have such thought provoking posts, WWU !   It’s funny, sometimes I look at my kids and wonder when they grow up what their pillow talk about me and DH will be…Reading this board gets me seriously worried sometimes!

 

I think it’s a complicated issue.   You can dislike your IL’s out of love and loyalty to your spouse, for sure.  You can also dislike your IL’s because their family dynamic touches on a strong negative issue you may have from your own childhood/family dynamic.  Or, you can dislike your IL’s, when it really isn’t an IL issue, rather a marital issue, or you can just dislike your IL’s because of crappy behavior, lack of compatibility, etc., and the list can go on.

 

My DH has opened up a bit in the last 5 years, but has in general been very reluctant to criticize his parents or upbringing.  "They did the best they could" is his signature response.  As a result, he is also forgiving of my parents and any of my "pillow talk" about them.


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#6 footballmom

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 11:52 PM

I have a very good friend that is a wonderful gourmet cook, she has traveled all over the world to go to cooking schools and can give any chef a run for his/her money.  Her husband is a terrible eater, likes meat and potatoes, guess what?  She hates her MIL for it and says that if MIL had been  a good mother and taught her son to eat a more rounded diet she would be appreciated, blah, blah, blah.  We can all find something if we look hard enough to "make" us dislike or even hate someone.

 

Now for the "stories" from childhood.  This also hits a spot with me.  I served as Chairwoman of the School Board at our kids school for 2 years when ODS was in Jr. High.  This position you have to be something like a pastor  in that you can tell no one what you know, what you hear and what you are told.  On to today. I am in a prayer group in our church of a mixed age group of women, we have ladies from their late teens to their early 90s in our group.  One of the ladies in our group starting asking for prayer request a couple years ago for her and her husband, each meeting she would share a little more.  Her story is that they are having tons of martial problems because DH has so many "left overs" from his parents.  They were unfair, favored the other child, was much to hard on him, never gave him what he needed and was the "whipping boy" of the family.  Now as this story has unfolded my mind goes back about 17 years when I was on the school board.  This young man was a Senior in high school and was a terror on wheels, he was suspended from school for showing up drunk on the first day of his senior year, he later was expelled for dealing drugs on campus, the school had trouble with him for years.  I know for a fact that the parents did what they could, out patient treatment, therapist, private school, in patient treatment, you name it, they tried it.  The younger brother was an excellent student but had to leave the school because everyone thought he was like his brother and other parents did not want their kids around him or his family (I am telling you this kid was bad news).  I sit and I listen to this woman almost every other week talk about how innocent and mistreated her DH was in his family and how she has prayed and taken him to therapy to get the thought that his parents put in his head out.  I wish I could ask her what DH did to make his parents "send him away" (her favorite mistreatment to fuss about) or why the younger brother had a car and he did not (he had at least 3 DUIs in high school) but I can not ask.  The parents have moved away from our area and it makes me sad that they are being lied about and people are believing her every word. 

 

I know that a lot of things that people remember and tell are true, right down to the last word, but sometimes it is not what really happened or is still being seen through a "child's eye" because they do not know the whole story.

 

My husband was raised by a housekeeper, my MIL was always gone helping other people but was never at home for her own kids.  SIL is very, very proud of what her Mom was in the community, FBD was proud of his Mom but was determined that our kids would be with one of us 24/7, no daycare/housekeepers/nanny/babysitters, BIL is in general ****** off at his Mom for never being the Mom he wanted.  So what is right with one child in the family may be the worse for another child.  I know MIL would have hated being a stay home Mom, FBD knows this and says she did what was right for her.  I hear stories from his childhood that make me want to cry but it is the reality of his life.  I tell him stories about my Mom and Dad and he thinks they are sad and I think they are normal. 

 

So ladies, be careful in how you raise your kids, it might be right in your eyes but it could be the ammo a husband or wife needs to convince you child that you are a monster.  I have been there, xDIL called us child abusers for taking ODS to church, and "sick-o weird-o's" for having him in scouting, she had her list and from what I know now, went over it with ODS on a regular basis, usually before and after every visit, just to remind him how horrible we were/are.


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#7 mom2fourmimi2one

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 12:10 AM

Wow FBM, that's terrible!  How you control yourself and not stand up and yell out "that's not what happened!?" I don't know.  I'd be bleeding from biting my tongue!

 

That reminds me of a conversation I had with my girls one day a couple of months ago.  We were in the car, the three of us, and my oldest daughter was complaining on how DH and I were soooooo over protective they (she and her brothers) weren't allowed to go to the corner store alone when they were little.  We lived in the inner city at the time and crime was an every day occurrence.

 

My youngest says "oh yeah, well, at least she was always there, now she's always working!"  We now live in the suburbs, very close to the beach.  She is allowed freedom the other's weren't allowed, she goes in groups of friends to spend the day at the beach.  But I'm now working second shift, not days as I did when the older ones were little.

 

I said, "wth, so you are both complaining I ruined your lives?" 

 

They laughed and said "yeah"

 

I said "oh well, get over it...tell it to your psychs.  Just remember, one day you are going to have kids and you will call me and say "MOM, I don't know what to do anymore!!!!""

 

"And do you know what I'm going to say?"  They said "what?"  I was at a red light, so I fell over the steering wheel laughing, and laughing and laughing....

 

They looked at each other and said "mom, you have issues"

 

:rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl: :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  



#8 newmommietobe

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 12:25 AM

FBM: and you heard the story from a parents' eye.

The truth is somewhere in the middle.

My brother was friends with a guy much like described in the story. He was acting out for a reason: his parents. And they did all the things the parents in your story did... And man did they have a sympathic following. Young man finally had someone get through to him in college. Now i will say, He was far from innocent... But niether were his "poor" parents. Just sayin'.
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#9 footballmom

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 12:40 AM

Well actually I heard the story from the parents, the teachers, the maintance staff, the police and other students and the kid himself. But OK.


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#10 SueSTx

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 12:42 AM

While growing up on the farm...my older sister by 2 years was tall for her age.  I was small for mine and my brother 2 yrs younger was the same size as I was.  I had three younger siblings, one just a year old.  Daddy worked shifts and when he was working 'evenings' mother and my oldest sister did the 'barn chores' while I stayed at the house with the younger 4 kids and 'watched' supper so it wouldn't burn. 

 

My sister remembers that she had to 'work like a man' and do all the chores.  I remember cooking when I was so little I had to pull a chair up to the stove and my brother remembers that if my sister stayed at the house and I went with mother that sister was 'mean' to the boys.

 

Both brother and I remember Daddy slipping sister quarters when we got a nickel.

 

My mother says...basically...we are all right.  But it really didn't hurt either sister or I to help out mother.


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#11 SueSTx

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 12:45 AM

I'm sure that FBM as the chairman of the school board did hear about as full a story as there was to hear.  I bet your tongue is sore from biting it. 



#12 PinkRedYellow

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 01:02 AM

Oh yes! this!! Interesting that you post this today, I've been thinking about this very thing all day - why certain things bug me so much about MIL/SFIL. I know these things are their life choices and have nothing to do with me. They are none of my business. Yet, they bug the crap out of me.

 

1) DH & BIL were very young when MIL & FIL divorced. Afterwards, FIL lived out of state & then out of the country for years. MIL has made numerous comments over the years about how this was hard on her sons. (of course) Despite that...

2)SFIL is from another country - they met there, They were both married at the time -  they each divorced their prior spouse and got married.  DH & BIL were grown adults, his daughter was much younger - about the age of my oldest now. 9 or 10.They decided to live here. On a different continent from his daughter. And - SFIL has a lot of *ahem* opinions on how we are raising our three children. I'm not interested in child rearing advice from someone that didn't bother to stick around and raise his own one child. How can you move to a different continent from your own minor child?? My step-niece's bio-Dad has never been in the picture. MIL went on & on when BIL got together with SIL about how awful it was that the bio-Dad wasn't involved. Argh!

3)So hypocritical - like when the Arnold Schwartnegger love-child scandal hit. SFIL wouldn't stop making jokes about it. MIL went to his country due to a certain organization that she & his first wife were both involved in. They didn't know each other beforehand, but MIL stayed in their home as his wife's guest - that is how they met. That is all I could think about while he was going on & on making jokes about Arnold and also about many other cheating-in-the-news situations through the years.

 

The girls just spent the night there over the weekend. Compared to DH & I, when it comes to the children they are harsh in some areas and completely lax in others. I guess these things might bug me regardless...but I really don't think they would bug me nearly as much if it wasn't for these things.  Mostly the bolded above. And, I'm not a great communicator. but there really is no nice way to say that, or even, not completely offensive way to say that. So I say nothing. Which isn't helping, I know.



#13 jaci

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 01:06 AM

I guess we are bad bad PILs.......because we were never perfect parents., and I do have 1 daughter out of the five. I am sure if my sons shared everything about their childhood, my DILs could find something to find fault with me if they really wanted to. Luckily, they don't claim to have THE perfect parents and don't feel as if they are perfect either.

 

I didn't use sunscreen on my children, we didnt know there was danger there. I loved the sun and spent hours in it. I laid my babies on their tummies, nobdy said not to. I fed my babies cereal at the age the doctor (gasp!) told me to, anywhere from a week old to 6 weeks old. I rubbed my babies gums with the prescription pargaoric before it became illegal. Guess the doctors were fools back then too.

 

I didnt use car-seats until my last child. Never even heard of a car-seat before then.

 

Something for young parents to think about. What you might think is good parenting, may very well be picked apart by some new DIL, looking to "save" her husband from his bad bad parents. What you think is good parenting, may very well come back to bite you in the *** when that son takes a wife.

 

Luckily for me, my DILs loves me. BUT I can promise you, if they tried to find fault with my parenting skills, when I know darn well I did the best I knew how, they are more than welcome to take a hike & don't bother to looi back. It won't bother me if they use the card "You wont see your GKs" because, as much as I love my GKs, I will never allow any of my kids or in-laws use that child to hurt me. They are NOT my kids. They are NOT my life..............And I love my DILs, even if they aren't perrfect!!


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#14 WhichWayU

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 01:17 AM

Just to make clear what genuine fools my ILs are, all my DH asked of them was for them to stop insulting, berating and demeaning him.  Apparently that was asking too much of his parents.


Edited by WhichWayU, 05 February 2013 - 01:45 AM.


#15 newmommietobe

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 01:25 AM

Well actually I heard the story from the parents, the teachers, the maintance staff, the police and other students and the kid himself. But OK.


And you place no blame at all, anywhere, not even a little bit on his parents? Seems to me something was off somewhere in his upbringing.

How is the young man doing today? Did he straighten out or is he still in trouble?

I will say it is ridiculous to me that Parents always seem so quick and love to take credit when their kid is doing good... But it's never any bit their fault if their kid messes up. I'll never understand that.

And to the PP discussing changes in child health and safety: no I don't blame parents at all for using the info that was best at the time. The problem comes in when you refuse to change with the time when things are proven better. The issues I have are favortism, not being fair/equal (not as in quantities but to all children's NEEDS when they were minors), etc. but in would never fault a parent for following the medical advice of the time.
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#16 footballmom

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 01:32 AM

I think to place blame is not my place, but I do know that many of the things this woman tells is not true. Example:  They" sent him away" so they did not have to deal with him>  Truth:  he was put in in house treatment at the cost of 40K in order to keep him out of prison.  Example:  Younger brother had a car, DH did not have a car. Truth:  DH did have a car, he lost his licences after his first DUI and got a few more, one in a car he stole from the school parking lot.  Example:  DH was not sent to college, his brother was.  Truth:  DH did not finish high school, therefore could not get into college, another truth younger brother received a full ride from UT. 

 

That is my problem with this thing, who's fault it was is up for grabs and not my concern in this prayer group.  The last 2 times she started talking about all of this, I excused myself to the ladies room.  This is simply an example of how different the truth and the memory can be.


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#17 missmm

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 01:43 AM

I don't think FBM was saying the parents had no responsiblity for their son. But sometimes a parent just doesn't understand their child and can't get through to them, maybe because of things in the parent's own background, maybe mental illness in the parent or the child, or maybe something else. I know a man in my church bible study who has spoken about his childhood several times and says straight out that he was horrible as a child, especially as a teen to his parents. He says he was confrontational and whatever they wanted for him, he did the opposite. It still is his basic personality. He blamed his parents back then but now sees it in a different, more nuanced way, of his own personality and his mom not really understanding him but loving him, and as an adult he forgives not just his mom but himself (which he says was harder to do). I know I am like Sue's older sister. I was the oldest girl and had more responiblities for my younger sisters and in the house, but to hear my sister's tell the story, I was a bossy, demanding witch. I just say if they had done what they were supposed to do, chores mom had assigned and their homework then there wouldn't have been anything for me to boss them about! Depends on where you are standing as to the view you have.



#18 mrsslant

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 02:17 AM

This is an interesting topic.  Honestly, I'm not all that interested in how DH was raised.  I know there were some issues there, but there were issues in my household too.  To be honest, I always took DH's stories of childhood with a grain of salt.  We were friends in high school, and honestly, he was really good at the whole teenage "No one understands me" thing.  However, my opinions of my MIL and her family are based on how DH was treated.  When I saw them treat him badly.  I think a seriously defining moment happened for me when DD was about 4 months old.  The year of constant fighting had not yet begun, that was to come in a couple of months.  Anyhow, DD had a messy diaper and the inlaws were over.  When it comes to diaper changes and who does them, DH and I have a policy.  Whoever touched her last has to change the diaper.  So on this occasion, DH had been the last to handle DD, so he got the lovely task.  He decided to change her in her crib.  DD had just started rolling, and DH was not quite prepared.  Without spelling it out too much, he had some cleaning up to do. 

I thought this was funny.  Lets be honest, this is something most parents run into at one point, I would assume. No biggie in my mind.  MIL's reaction said differently, however.  She walked into the room and saw what had happened and her first reaction, very first was "YOU DUMB SH**.  That is something your A##hole father would have done!  I can't believe you let that happen, don't you have a brain?"  there was more, but that isn't the point.  A couple minutes into her diatribe she realized she was way out of line and apologized.  It wasn't ever brought up again, it was never used against her.  But to me, it spoke volumes, that that was her very first reaction.  I felt so hurt for DH that day and the funny thing is, he didn't think a thing of it.  That spoke volumes to me as well, that that was so normal that he doesn't even bat an eye. 

Obviously I am simplifying things to a point, MIL has given me many reasons to not like her, and I'm a big enough girl to say that I came up with a few that really weren't a big deal during the BEC stage.  But to me that was a true moment of clarity where she told me who she was.


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#19 TowandaDIL

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 02:18 AM

I don't think anybody blames their parents for not putting on sunscreen, feeding solids early, sleeping on tummies, etc. That was just the information that was available at the time. In that sense I think most people were "doing their best." Heck my ODS is eating a bag of dried kale a day and I'm sure at some point kale will be proven toxic or to have female hormones or to cause the growth of a horn. :-) And I will have to eat crow and apologize to him for allowing him to eat it. You can't know, no one knows, and now that most of us are parents, we get how hard it is to keep up with and follow the ever-changing advice from the childcare experts.

That said, however, most people here are not mad at their ILs for things like that. Like Eowyn and WWU I don't like my ILs because of far deeper issues. For instance I am pretty sure it was not the parenting advice back in the 60s and 70s to yell and scream at your child and wife all the livelong day like FIL did. Or to join a religion and basically abandon your family emotionally and psychologically like MIL did.

And I am sure FIL would spin his terrible temper as "parenting" but MIL has told me in passing a few times that DH was a good kid and a good teenager. He did the usual teenager stuff but he was a hard worker and got himself into a good college and stayed out of trouble for the most part. So FIL was a petty, controlling tyrant and treated DH horribly, then expected DH to be his BFF when it came time to go to the golf course.

And I am sure MIL would say that her joining her religion had no impact on DH. That she was still "there." Yes, she cooked and cleaned (grudgingly) but she completely checked out. Her church became her world. She and FIL fought about it like cats and dogs for years. She never really mothered DH. She was more like a really bored babysitter, if that makes sense. (DH would never in a million years drive to his mom's house in the middle of the night for comfort or a hug. Unfathomable.)

But the worst thing and the real reason I dislike my ILs. -- and this might sound weird but it's true -- is that my ILs haven't changed ONE BIT. They still expect DH to jump like a trained monkey when they give an order. They have no remorse or regrets about how they raised DH. They think they are great and that everyone should be like them. And they are completely befuddled that he doesn't want a close relationship with them.

We are ALL going to make mistakes as parents. Probably lots and lots of them (in fact, I find myself apologizing to my kids fairly often!). I could get past a lot of what happened in DH's childhood if my ILs would just admit that some of the things they did were wrong, and that if they could go back and change it they would. But they can't, or won't, and when I see DH cry about why his parents don't value their relationship with him enough to at least TRY to understand his point of view, it makes my blood boil. That's why I don't like my ILs
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Posted 05 February 2013 - 02:28 AM

My dad had 8 brothers and sisters.  They all had different versions of their childhood.  

One of my co-workers was talking about her brothers version of his childhood and how she wondered how in the world he came up with some of the stuff he said.   It wasn't even close to how she saw it.  I asked why she thought that was.  She said her brother is sensitive.

With my own two, I have one child thanking me for pushing him in school-  "mom you were strict but you weren't".  and another remembering/ resenting all the fights we had because I made him read. 

When I was a young mother   I blamed parents  for those kids that went around bashing my mailboxes with baseball bats.  After raising mine, I'm not so quick to blame.

I think that no ones childhood is perfect,  no parents are perfect,  parent/ child personalities don't always mesh., and there are loads of influences on a child besides the parent.    Parents are an easy target.

It would be interesting to me to talk to all you mother bashers out there when you have 20 something kids.


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