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Should overnight visits take place with grandma?


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#1 PTCruzr

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 03:25 AM

My daughter is in a dilemma.    

 

This is what the other grandmother does.....

She ignores everything that the parents ask.   She will not put up child gates on her 3 stairways, she swears in front of the child, she refuses to think the child needs a nap, and generally ignores any rules put forth by the parents.  

 

The grandmother also has a son at home who was charged with sexual abuse with a child under the age of 18.   He is 29, she was 16.  And grandma says that it was the girl's fault.

 

 Now this grandmother thinks that my daughter is being unreasonable by saying that her daughter should not spend the night at grandma's house.   The grandma has had supervised visitation privileges from the beginning and the granddaughter is now 2.   I think my daughter's rules should trump grandmas in this case.   I know the grandmother and can attest to her saying that the granddaughter does not need naps, can eat cheese pops for lunch and dinner, and can do anything at her house.    Any ideas?  

 

The grandmother was repeatedly asked to put up child gates in front of the three stairways (one open to a basement) in her house.   She has never done that.  


I  feel that I should try to keep my ideas to myself but some of the things that I have heard make me want to protect my granddaughter.  


To make matters worse, the father of the child (grandma's son), died prior to the granddaughter being born....may have been drug related...   and it happened at grandma's house.     My daughter and her son were not married and only knew each other for about 5 months.   Plus his mother put him in foster care when he was 14 because he was chasing away her boyfriends!!!   She never put the children first.

 

My daughter knows that she chose poorly when she found herself pregnant by the baby's father but was trying to work things through in the interest of the child prior to the father's death.   Plus my daughter has been trying to work with the other grandmother.   But every time that she allows the other grandmother to take her daughter, she does not bring her back on time and does not pay any attention to the rules.   I know grandparents can relax some rules but my daughter now has a newborn, plus a mother in law with dementia living with her, and these rules help to keep things calm around the house.    When her daughter comes home after being gone with grandma, it appears that she is eating  poorly and she is returned late. 

 

If she were to take the granddaughter, she would be taking her across State lines.   Grandma lives in PA, mother in NY.



#2 Arabella

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 03:41 AM

I would advise my daughter to end all contact, forever, with that other woman. What possible good comes from contact with someone who can't mind rules, has a sexual abuser living with her, won't use gates or feed proper food? Really?

 

EDIT No alone time ever ever. No crossing state lines. Never see her again, ever.

 

I am a competent mil-mom raising my own 8 year old and my daughter's 2 girls (3 days a week--my daughter has horrid work hours). I don't see my son's toddlerboygrands more than 2-3 times a year for an hour or two, trust me when I tell you that I am worthy of seeing them 24-7, your daughter's other woman is not worthy of any visits at all.


Edited by Arabella, 25 March 2013 - 02:06 PM.

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#3 Guest_Kalana_*

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 03:45 AM

I agree with Arabella completely.

#4 britomart

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 03:45 AM

Wow!  Is the visitation you speak of ordered by a court?  Honestly, if I were your daughter I would never let that woman near my child.  So, as you can guess I would definitely NOT allow any overnights with that grandma.  I wouldn't even allow any unsupervised visitation. 

 

If the visitation is court-ordered (if I were your daughter) I would look into working with my lawyer to have it changed in light of all that information about that grandma. She is not a good person to have around the child and I would argue that her involvement hurts the child. 

 

If your daughter is asking you what to do then I would direct her to a family-law attorney so she can see about having the visitation changed.  If the visitation is not court-ordered then I would just not let her have my child for any alone-time and actually would not be around that woman any more. 


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#5 Sunshine1002

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 03:07 PM

No way should your GD ever be left alone unsupervised w her other Grandmother!

Short supervised visits in a public place (playground, going for a walk, beach etc) would be ok I think. That way if the other Grandmother became to much to handle/disrepectfuls of your DDs rules, she could pack up and leave ASAP.

Does this other Grandmother have court ordered visitation time? If so, given the info you listed your DD should fight tooth and nail to have it revoked. GPs who are disrespectful to parents (or of their rules/boundaries) dont really bring alot of positive influences to a GKs life.
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#6 BlueEyedGirl

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 05:15 AM

This adult has a proven track record of allowing dangerous behavior in her home (not taking simple safety precautions to protect a child who cannot protect themselves), has for all intents and purposes that we are aware of, allowed her son to sexually abuse a minor and then accuse the minor of causing his behavior (whether she was aware of his behavior beforehand or not, she was certainly aware of it after and accused the victim of causing the behavior - and he's still in the home), refuses to follow requests that are for the child's benefit (naps and meals and schedule requests), has a history of having her own children being removed from the home, and is now expecting to take a two year old - probably not fully capable of communicating every detail - across state lines for overnight visits? That she sees this child at all is the miracle. Quite frankly, I would practically walk through fire to ensure that my children have a good relationship with their grandparents, but if they had one like this, there is no chance on earth they would ever be alone with them, much less be allowed overnight visits...let alone across state lines. 

 

If she is required to allow visits with her - I would fight tooth and nail for supervised visits of a very limited nature and I would revisit this allotment with the courts on a very regular basis. And I would never allow my child unsupervised or overnight visits with her. 


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#7 homeygfunk

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 09:52 AM

You could refuse to allow your child to go and then make them take you back to court. The child molester living in the home would be your defense as well as the other things. Is the child molester registered with the authorities? If not, are there people who know about it? If they take you back to court what do you think the judge would do to you? Attorneys can sometimes give you these answers on a free first consultation. 



#8 BlondeMommy

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 04:51 PM

I'm confused. You said the other grandma (PGM) has had "supervised visits since birth". If there supervised, who supervises them? If they were supervised wouldn't the supervisor ensure that baby was returned at the scheduled time?

If mom is in NY and PGM is in PA, it sounds as though state lines are crossed every visit. Why else would the PGM be required to put up baby gates, and you said PGM has stated that baby can do what she wants at PGM's house. So baby is already being taken across state lines to PGM's home.

Also there son who was charged with sexual abuse. Was he convicted or just charged? Not that it matters which, but if convicted would likely need to register as a sex offender and there's a possibility that he's not allowed near minors. Again it sounds as though the PGM takes baby to her house where the son is, perhaps he's violating his probation or the conditions of being a registered sex offender. Regardless I wouldn't want my child around a charged or convicted sex offender, and you're absolutely right your daughters rules should trump PGM. Does your DD have a rule in regards to the sex offender, has she stated that she doesn't want baby near him, let alone in the same room, or left alone with him. Has DD said she doesn't want baby staying overnight in the same house as a sex offender?

Going back to the "supervised visits" are these court ordered? If so, was the son charged with sexual abuse before or after the court order? If he was charged after, I'm sure your DD would be well within her rights to refuse visits where a sex offender is present. I'm not sure any judge would force a minor child to be in the same home, not to mention the risk of the possibility that baby could be left alone with sex offender. It doesn't sound like anyone actually supervises the visit, so how do you or your DD know that PGM isn't leaving baby alone to run to the store, or worse possibly go on dates. If PGM could give away her own son because he was chasing away her dates, who's to say that *if* she did get an overnight with baby, she'd stay and watch baby and not go out on a date!

My advice is the same as the other posters, STOP all visits.immediately. If PGM tries take DD to court, let her it sounds like your DD would win as she clearly has the baby's best interests at heart.
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#9 PTCruzr

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:04 PM

There are no court ordered supervised visits and for the most part DD has been there when PGM visits but sometimes, she lets the PGM and her hubby take my granddaughter for a couple of hours.   She has been trying to be nice to the PGM as the poor woman did lose her son but PGM is almost demanding that my granddaughter stay with her overnight and my DD just does not feel comfortable with that.   Incidentally, I shared some of the letters written on this site with my daughter and she said "thanks mom, I have been feeling alone in this" and it really helped her to believe that she is doing the right thing by withholding overnights.   My DD is getting to the point where she may soon deny all visits but she was trying to cooperate with the grandmother because of her son's death.   PGM is now married but actually bought a boyfriend to see her granddaughter one time and my daughter told her to not bring her boyfriend around anymore.     PGM is a piece of work!!!  



#10 PhalenMum

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 11:29 PM

IMO if the PGM is housing a registered sex offender then in NO way should that child be alone in the house for any length of time.



#11 PTCruzr

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 03:26 PM

He is not yet a registered sex offender.   The PGM says that the charges were dropped but we have no way of checking on that.  I do know that he still has himself registered on some dating sites saying that he is only 20 when he is almost 30.  Plus every time anyone asks the PGM, she says that her son has moved out but when we look into it further, he still lives there.   She is a liar, cheat, and generally bad for not only my granddaughter but her own children.   All of them have a criminal record, although they are criminal mischief and drug related.   My DD is trying to protect her daughter but really would like her to at least know that she has a grandmother to ask (about her father) when she grows up. 

My DD did finally tell the PGM that she may never be comfortable leaving her daughter overnight at her home.   PGM told my DD that she was being a "*****"   and that because my DD is receiving Social Security from PGMs son's benefits, that PGM feels visitation should be allowed.   (Because she was tested for DNA to obtain those benefits).  If she had not DD would have gotten a blood sample from the funeral home.  

Because the PGM has been so pushy over the visitation issue, my DD is a little afraid of what she has in mind for her daughter should she get her.   I know PGMs language is terrible and she has never put anyones welfare before her own, but she has been allowed to see her granddaughter.   My DD pointed out to PGM that she is only a grandmother, not the mother of the child and that frankly her language as a grandmother was questionable and she does not feed her daughter well nor believe in naps.   At least my DD stuck up for her child and now we will see what happens.  

Hopefully, PGM does not seek out a lawyer but if she does, I have told my daughter that she should be documenting everything.   Maybe if PGM gets a lawyer, it will be the same lawyer used to bail her son out of jail for sexual misconduct!!!  



#12 JustaGrandma

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 04:08 PM

There is no way my daughter would ever go alone with her! I would refuse her only to see the child in my home my supervision if she don't like that drag me to court let the truth come out and I can't see any court allowing unsupervised visit with this gram if any visitation at all. Mother is in NY they don't have much on the books about grandparents rights so I can't see any court finding for a grandma that has an offender living with her. 


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#13 BlondeMommy

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 04:13 PM

PTCruzr if anyone called me a name in one sentence and then demanded that I hand over my child to them in the next sentence, would be told NO! End of story, you don't respect me, you resort to name calling, and you're questioning my parenting, no you will not have access, supervised/alone nothing.

I agree with your advice to document everything. Also if your daughter thinks PGM may take her to court, I'd recommend ending the unsupervised visits, PGM can come and visit the child at your daughters house, AND I'd recommend your DD get a nannycam that can video and record the encounters. Having proof of how PGM is with the baby would help your DD's case. Also I'd suggest that any calls made between DD and PGM are recorded.

You said your DD is now married and expecting another child, so presumably they've established a home for GC, if new husband actively takes part in GC's life and has become a loving step-dad, I would also think this will factor into the courts decisions.

#14 homeygfunk

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 12:25 PM

if there is court ordered visitation with GP does it have to be in the GP's home? I have never come across this in my research

also wondered if the visits have to be unsupervised -- can the parents request supervised visits?

maybe it depends on the state and the circumstances -- what a headache this can be



#15 rosered135

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 02:35 PM

PT, I'm so sorry your DD is facing this difficult situation! But I'm glad she appreciates the advice given here and that it made her feel less "alone." Also, IMO, it's very kind of her to care about the fact that PGM lost her DS and that, therefore, her/your GD is a valuable connection for her. But, IMO, too, DD must put her child's welfare first.  And whether or not  PGM thinks DD is being "unreasonable," or the other son is truly a "sex offender," if DD is uncomfortable with the idea of her child being alone with PGM/staying overnight in PGM's house, she should, I believe, simply not allow it and that's that! 

 

Yes, PGM may take her to court but then again, maybe she won't. I'm no legal expert but if I'm correct, she would have to file for visitation in New York, where the child lives and she might not want to do that.

 

And yes, she might win some visitation if she does, but with all the safety concerns, probably not. No doubt, DD should document everything,  as you advised her. At the very least, I think chances are strong that DD could get supervised visitation ordered.

 

Also, if DD keeps letting PGM see her and her child together, that's still visitation. PGM won't have a case, to my knowledge. I may be wrong but IDK of any state that distinguishes between types of visitation - IOWs, as long as GM is getting to see her GC, they're not likely to say, "Oh but she must also have alone-time." However, IDK if DD even wants her child around PGM with her (DD) present.

 

Meanwhile, I commend you for trying to keep your thoughts to yourself. But  this is, largely, about your GD's health and safety so I'm glad you, finally, spoke out. And DD seems to be open to and even welcome the support and advice so you're ok. As you can see, posters are totally with you and DD on this! Please keep us posted!



#16 britomart

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 04:49 PM

Please please please urge your daughter to stop allowing the PGM to see your GD.  Grandparents can be important for kids but not if they are toxic and disrespectful and potentially harmful like this PGM is.  I only see potential for harm to your GD if your daughter continues to take that poor child over to see that woman. Continuing to visit the PGM only strengthens the PGM's potential grandparents' rights case.  Please cease all contact with her.  She sounds like the kind of person who would sue for GP rights and put your daughter and GD through heck.  This woman is not good for your GD and I hope your daughter sees that before it is too late.  I don't care what it took but I would fight tooth and nail to make sure my child never saw a woman like that again.  I would do anything to protect my child. 


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#17 britomart

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 04:50 PM

Also, I strongly urge your daughter to see a family lawyer so that your daughter can begin protecting herself and her child. 


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