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GrandNonna

Topic on Grandparent Visitation and Alienation

143 posts in this topic

Hello Everyone,

I wanted to stop by here tonight to rave about the facebook /Grandparents.com page I really like . I have a page that I am linking to it called Grandparent Visitation.

I have written to the Senator in my area, and I have created a petition because I feel that the only way to stop the heartache and to continue to speak for our grandchildren 

is to amend the law. The law varies in different states . I would like those who may be interested in reading to jump on board the Grandparents facebook page that relates to 

Grandparents.com and you can find my American flag picture for my petition. I am shooting for as many signatures as possible, they are hidden so that this law can be fixed .

Too many angry parents love the law as it is now because it gives they leverage to abuse the power. I want to make things level and fair and stop this fight where unwarranted. 

If you want my petition link and cannot find it on GP/facebook send me a message and I will send you the link. I am eager to hear back from my Senator and have positive feelings and thoughts about the outcome . Once you read the petition and watch the psychologist video attached to it you may have feedback which is greatly appreciated. Thank you !

Respectfully posted,

GN

 

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First of all, the petition as written?  Will be struck down immediately on the basis that it is unconstitutional on its face.  Parental rights are constitutional- protected by the constitution.  All third party visitation, which GPR falls under, is statutory- which means that it is dependant on the current statutes on the books and their constitutionality.  

The set of circumstances that you put forth *maternal grandmother of a non marital relationship* and *cared for child more than 2 days each week and an overnight for at least a year* are so specific that the people affected by this proposed law are so few that it isn't worth the family court's time to learn about the law.  Also, you basically roadmapped a "avoid GPR" game plan- "hmm, GPR in my state says that if I give weekly overnights for a year than Maternal Gma gets GPR. Guess I better have a very well documented family vacation a couple of times a year without maternal Gma, to prove she didn't have that continuous overnight streak!"

Also, why does the maternal Gma deserve holidays to the point that "Each and every holiday missed... awarded twice the time for makeup of time missed".  Each and every holiday?  What holidays?  Today is "international kiss day" according to my facebook feed, and tomorrow is "Chocolate Day" and "Strawberry Sundae Day" (I'm celebrating tomorrow.  I don't care that it is a made up holiday, I'm all over that).  The 2nd week of July is "Nude Recreation week", and I don't want to celebrate that with my parents, that's for sure! 

How would one go about making holidays happen if you didn't mean only maternal grandma?  For example, "Katie" lives in Colorado with her husband.  Her mother lives in NoCal, her father in NYC, her MIL inside the beltway, and her FIL in NoVa.  Who pays for flights to make it "level and fair"?  

If you've been on this site for a bit and lurked around, you'd find that "level and fair" is not something expected by the grandmothers here.  Because in life, there is no "level and fair", and especially with children involved. It would be inherently *UNFAIR* to say that Maternal Gma gets every.single.holiday forever, unless you want to give up 2 days later on.  You'll find a lot of pushback here on that one.  My own grandmother didn't see all the grandkids on Christmas- in fact, I didn't spend Christmas Day with her until I was well into adulthood.  

Which brings me to another point... at what point does it become ridiculous for *Grandma*?  Because while my mother has 4 grands, her sister has 7.  My maternal grandmother has 24 grandkids, 12 great grands.  If you ask her, she says she has 29, soon to be 30 grandkids- since she counts all of the grandkids-in-law as "hers" as well.  Does that mean she needs to host all of the grands and great-grands that are under 18 once a week?  That's 15 kids.  

Finally, "any mental illness that requires prescribed medication" is an incredibly broad category of people to strip of their HIPAA rights and have docs reporting to the courts, their parents, and their in-laws.  That sounds like the fastest way to exacerbate the mental health stigma and drive people away from seeking help.  

Edited by shoppingninja
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GN, do you have an issue? What is it you hope to achieve?

Anonymous poster hash: ea945...f93

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Here's the part of the petition that I am referencing:

 

"Below are laws that should be put into effect not waiting for a child to become so overwhelmed and psychologically harmed before the courts will take action and order visitation . 

  1.  That a Maternal Grandmother of a child born out of a non marital relationship, who has a loving bond with the child and who was cared for , nurtured and spent more than two days each week visiting and staying overnight for 1 year or more on a regular basis be granted visitation.    
  2.  That the Grandchild , who has a reached a maturity level to state  his/her wishes and that those wishes  of visiting be granted.
  3. That any child born in America out of a non marital relationship who’s praternal or maternal grandparents are immigrants show work visa and other legal documentation , such as birth certificates ,employment and work visa, to protect the child from being removed from the United States by the grandparents .
  4.  That if the biological Father or Mother are under the care of a therapist or physician for treatment of a mental illness or developmental disability which requires prescribed medications to manage the illness ,  who otherwise , refuse to follow  physician orders ,  while engaging in recreational drugs and alcohol as “self  medicating “ be court ordered for drug screening and psychological evaluation at their own cost or by fee waiver .
  5.  That the courts ask for and accept any video recorded communication of a child expressing his wishes within 2 years of visitation denial, who has expressed his wishes of continuing visits , be fully considered . 
  6. That for every 1 day missed with Grandchildren to allow an additional 2 days reunification time. And that for each and every holiday missed to be awarded twice the time for make up of time missed."

 

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24 minutes ago, shoppingninja said:

Here's the part of the petition that I am referencing:

 

"Below are laws that should be put into effect not waiting for a child to become so overwhelmed and psychologically harmed before the courts will take action and order visitation . 

  1.  That a Maternal Grandmother of a child born out of a non marital relationship, who has a loving bond with the child and who was cared for , nurtured and spent more than two days each week visiting and staying overnight for 1 year or more on a regular basis be granted visitation.    
  2.  That the Grandchild , who has a reached a maturity level to state  his/her wishes and that those wishes  of visiting be granted.
  3. That any child born in America out of a non marital relationship who’s praternal or maternal grandparents are immigrants show work visa and other legal documentation , such as birth certificates ,employment and work visa, to protect the child from being removed from the United States by the grandparents .
  4.  That if the biological Father or Mother are under the care of a therapist or physician for treatment of a mental illness or developmental disability which requires prescribed medications to manage the illness ,  who otherwise , refuse to follow  physician orders ,  while engaging in recreational drugs and alcohol as “self  medicating “ be court ordered for drug screening and psychological evaluation at their own cost or by fee waiver .
  5.  That the courts ask for and accept any video recorded communication of a child expressing his wishes within 2 years of visitation denial, who has expressed his wishes of continuing visits , be fully considered . 
  6. That for every 1 day missed with Grandchildren to allow an additional 2 days reunification time. And that for each and every holiday missed to be awarded twice the time for make up of time missed."

 

Yeah, no.

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Noncustodial parents don't get double make up days.  

Video recordings of small children aren't allowed because there's no way to tell if they were coerced.  That goes for mom, dad, grandma, etc. 

Also, just because someone has a visa or a green card doesn't mean they can't remove the child from the US. A passport is required for the child, not the immigration papers of the grandparent.  That whole section doesn't make sense.  

My husband has major depression, PTSD, and anxiety- all diagnosed at one time or another.  I'm offended at the idea that he could potentially be the subject of an investigation and psych eval if he cracks the occasional beer.  

I have more, but I require coffee and the baby needs rescuing from his toys.  

Edited by shoppingninja
forgot a sentence. Needed coffee!
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OK, I had my coffee, the evil toy that was stuck on the baby's shirt has been temporarily vanquished.  

GN, it seems that you've literally tried to write legislation to fit your very very specific situation.  That leaves a terrible taste in my mouth, because it is only about YOU and YOUR grandkids, not about grandparents and grandchildren in general.  To be honest, I disagree with most grandparent's rights legislation.  I can respect and appreciate when legislation is written with the general welfare of children in mind- even if I disagree with the premise.  However, when a bill is written to make a special class of one and tailored to one individual and one situation?  That's not what the legislative branch is for.  

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You're asking for more than non custodial parents get.

Grandparents are not equal to, and should not be equal to, parents, unless a parent has been deemed unfit by the courts, and a grandparent is awarded custody, vs a foster home placement.

You do not have the right to other ppl's medical files/history. Are you willing to offer access to your own? Are you willing to undergo psychological testing, if they believe you self medicate w/alcohol?

Unless you're willing to do what you're asking, you're being a hypocrite.

The way this reads, it's about coercing parents to do what a grandparent wants, or face punishment, by losing double time.

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I don't see any links-

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Double time is not a thing, anyways.  

Would Christmas count as a "holiday" if the child is not being raised Christian?  What if they've never been to church, or rarely for stuff like weddings, funerals, etc.  Would a Christmas visit of 15 minutes the weekend after Christmas "count" or just *the day*?  Who's paying for the travel? How long to do the "makeup time"?  

Just how much time are you expecting to be awarded?  Multiply that by 4 to get how much time you're really talking about- because if you want "fair" then you would want all grandparents to get the same amount of time.  1 weekend overnight a month means that the PARENTS would get zero uninterrupted weekend time with their own children.  No weekend camping trips with Mom and Dad, kiddo, because you've got to go to see grandma m, grandpa m, grandma p, and grandpa p every single weekend...  

What about later children?  Many times, a GP helps out with the oldest because the parents are young, and develop a close bond with that oldest child.  Subsequent babies are born, and the level of help needed/wanted/allowed isn't the same as it was with the oldest.  Should younger siblings be automatically added to the order?  

And, I am really, really stuck on the "Maternal Grandmother" part.  Why is the maternal grandmother more important than the paternal?  Why are grandMOTHERS more important than grandFATHERs?  If you were born with different plumbing, would you feel the same way, or is it just because you happen to be the maternal grandmother in your situation?  The US government should not be making "Maternal Grandmother" a 3rd parent.  

I understand that you are hurting, but demanding that the legislators in your area craft a bill to help only you is not the way to go about healing.  You'd still have to go to court to get the visitation you're fighting for, and by the time that happens, you wouldn't even fit your own criteria of making that happen (2 days a week visitation and an overnight/week won't happen if you drag them to court AGAIN).  

 

Edited by RoseRed135
5f

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Maybe find a way to make peace with your daughter and the father of your grandchild. Maybe then you won't be turning to outsiders to have a relationship with your grandchild. That's assuming your gchild's parents are reasonably fully functioning adults. If they aren't, help them get what they need to get there rather than manipulate outsiders into giving you what you think you deserve or are owed.

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I listened to the entire video provided with the petition- What Mame925 suggests is also what is suggested by the second speaker in the video -- in so many words- The premise is to work it out or make it work- However, even though it's what the second speaker supports, she's clear our legal system doesn't support work it out or make it work- Her suggestion is modeled after Scandinavian countries -- which is work it out / make it work, by law- Therefore, petitioning for change is one avenue a parent / grandparent can take in the US- 

Some fascinating stuff in the video .. I suggest watching it- 3 things that were eye openers, for me personally, were the work it out / make it work law in Scandinavian countries and how having that law in places basically doesn't leave any room for excessive manipulative behavior- The next was pathological enmeshment, and how frequently it's the root cause / reason behind why "professionals" very frequently mix up which parent is manipulative and which isn't- The third is the first speaker divided professionals into two groups: lumpers and splitters- I'm most definitely a splitter .. !

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7 hours ago, shoppingninja said:

Double time is not a thing, anyways.  

Would Christmas count as a "holiday" if the child is not being raised Christian?  What if they've never been to church, or rarely for stuff like weddings, funerals, etc.  Would a Christmas visit of 15 minutes the weekend after Christmas "count" or just *the day*?  Who's paying for the travel? How long to do the "makeup time"?  

Just how much time are you expecting to be awarded?  Multiply that by 4 to get how much time you're really talking about- because if you want "fair" then you would want all grandparents to get the same amount of time.  1 weekend overnight a month means that the PARENTS would get zero uninterrupted weekend time with their own children.  No weekend camping trips with Mom and Dad, kiddo, because you've got to go to see grandma m, grandpa m, grandma p, and grandpa p every single weekend...  

What about later children?  Many times, a GP helps out with the oldest because the parents are young, and develop a close bond with that oldest child.  Subsequent babies are born, and the level of help needed/wanted/allowed isn't the same as it was with the oldest.  Should younger siblings be automatically added to the order?  

And, I am really, really stuck on the "Maternal Grandmother" part.  Why is the maternal grandmother more important than the paternal?  Why are grandMOTHERS more important than grandFATHERs?  If you were born with different plumbing, would you feel the same way, or is it just because you happen to be the maternal grandmother in your situation?  The US government should not be making "Maternal Grandmother" a 3rd parent.  

I understand that you are hurting, but demanding that the legislators in your area craft a bill to help only you is not the way to go about healing.  You'd still have to go to court to get the visitation you're fighting for, and by the time that happens, you wouldn't even fit your own criteria of making that happen (2 days a week visitation and an overnight/week won't happen if you drag them to court AGAIN).  

-link removed-

Thank you for the link!

Edited by Mame925
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OK, I had written a huge rant listing all of the problems with this idea, but it wouldn't be helpful.

So, instead, GrandNonna I am truly sorry you are missing your grandkids. You clearly love them and want to be part of their lives and that is commendable. The mother of your children may not like you, she may have problems, I don't know and in many ways it doesn't matter. Only a few things really matter here:

1) You should do whatever you need to do to make sure all children are safe. If you or anyone suspect abuse or neglect they should call the authorities. If you have physical custody of the grandchildren and the parents are absent you should do whatever you can to gain legal custody. This is the route grandparents have.

2) Current law does not recognize Grandparents as equal to parents. You need to build a relationship with your grandchildren based on current law. This means that you need to have a positive relationship with the parents of the children. You need to work within the current system or you will run out of time.

3) In some states you can sue in court. If you qualify than that is something to consider, but please recognize this as a nuclear option. If you win great, but if you lose why would the parents want to associate with someone who sued them. Again you need to have a positive relationship with the parents of the children.

I feel for you. But be careful you don't burn all your bridges.

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Grandnonna I just noticed that this is you. Can you give us update on how the court case went.

 

5 hours ago, INCOGNITO said:

GN, do you have an issue? What is it you hope to achieve?

Anonymous poster hash: ea945...f93

Incognito, the link to her previous post above might help explain GrandNonna's issue and what she is hoping for.

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Also, if bridges do get burned in the process with the parent/s you can reach out to and perhaps establish / re-establish a relationship with your (general your) grandchild/ren when they become of age -- at which time they too may do the reaching- It's not uncommon- Many grandparents have waited it out-

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15 hours ago, shoppingninja said:

 

 

Edited by GrandNonna

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2 hours ago, darkprincess said:
17 hours ago, shoppingninja said:
17 hours ago, shoppingninja said:

Hello Shoppingninja ,

I'll respond to each and every comment on your reply and if I am not understanding I will ask you to rephrase ok? ALso thank you for responding it is my first petition  as I would like to see the current law amended simply because I really don't like reading that a child must have emotional or psychological problems and that a grandparent has to prove that in court it to me , means suffer first and it realy rubs me the wrong way . Wouldn't you agree? 

 

First of all, the petition as written?  Will be struck down immediately on the basis that it is unconstitutional on its face.  Parental rights are constitutional- protected by the constitution.  All third party visitation, which GPR falls under, is statutory- which means that it is dependant on the current statutes on the books and their constitutionality.

 The petition is unconstitutional yes indeed . That is because it is a request to make it a law so that it will be constitutional . Now beings I have never written before , I wrote what you see based on alot of other people who's stories I have read some in the newspaper as well. There is room for a fix on here and any feedback that you would add is greatly appreciated .  

The set of circumstances that you put forth *maternal grandmother of a non marital relationship* and *cared for child more than 2 days each week and an overnight for at least a year* are so specific that the people affected by this proposed law are so few that it isn't worth the family court's time to learn about the law.  Also, you basically roadmapped a "avoid GPR" game plan- "hmm, GPR in my state says that if I give weekly overnights for a year than Maternal Gma gets GPR. Guess I better have a very well documented family vacation a couple of times a year without maternal Gma, to prove she didn't have that continuous overnight streak!" 

I do not understand the above . So far some laws actually have it written in that a grandparent had the child LIVE WITH for 6 or more months . That applies to some of us , I was adding a reasonable amount of time . Like I said it can be changed . Do you have ideas ? 

Also, why does the maternal Gma deserve holidays to the point that  In our situation the paternal Gma was the only one allowed to have the holiday in fact I was told not to count on the same holiday dinner ever by  the father 

Each and every holiday missed... awarded twice the time for makeup of time missed".  Each and every holiday?  What holidays?  Today is "international kiss day" according to my facebook feed, and tomorrow is "Chocolate Day" and "Strawberry Sundae Day" (I'm celebrating tomorrow.  I don't care that it is a made up holiday, I'm all over that).  The 2nd week of July is "Nude Recreation week", and I don't want to celebrate that with my parents, that's for sure! 

I wrote that , because I was reviewing some parenting plans and what you read is exactly what I had read that was acceptable by the courts . 

How would one go about making holidays happen if you didn't mean only maternal grandma?  For example, "Katie" lives in Colorado with her husband.  Her mother lives in NoCal, her father in NYC, her MIL inside the beltway, and her FIL in NoVa.  Who pays for flights to make it "level and fair"?  

Being level and fair first of all, I would not take holidays away from the paternal Gma and Great Gma . Alternating each year is fair to me . We all live local sp travel is not an issue .

If you've been on this site for a bit and lurked around, you'd find that "level and fair" is not something expected by the grandmothers here.  Because in life, there is no "level and fair", and especially with children involved. It would be inherently *UNFAIR* to say that Maternal Gma gets every.single.holiday forever, unless you want to give up 2 days later on.  You'll find a lot of pushback here on that one.  My own grandmother didn't see all the grandkids on Christmas- in fact, I didn't spend Christmas Day with her until I was well into adulthood.  

As far as level and fair , you will notice that I use that term often because it is who I am and what I believe in in life . Regardless of who believes there is or is not level and fair , I believe in treating people as I would want to be treated . Weather they want to be fair back to me , no problem I am not effected or moved by or even respond to those who are selfish or greedy .

Which brings me to another point... at what point does it become ridiculous for *Grandma*?  Because while my mother has 4 grands, her sister has 7.  My maternal grandmother has 24 grandkids, 12 great grands.  If you ask her, she says she has 29, soon to be 30 grandkids- since she counts all of the grandkids-in-law as "hers" as well.  Does that mean she needs to host all of the grands and great-grands that are under 18 once a week?  That's 15 kids.  

Ha! That is a great question I believe my Mother had high numbers in grandkids and great grandkids too . No not once a week I think that would be overwhelming to keep up but each family has its own wants . If I were so fortunate as to have that many I would most likely have a get together a few times a year and who shows , bravo and who doesn't  we catch up another time. 

Finally, "any mental illness that requires prescribed medication" is an incredibly broad category of people to strip of their HIPAA rights and have docs reporting to the courts, their parents, and their in-laws.  That sounds like the fastest way to exacerbate the mental health stigma and drive people away from seeking help.  

Many states view this as abusive . Take a parent who is out of control when not smoking pot and drinking and that is the only way the person can be reasonable. Do you think it is alright to have that person care for children while withdrawing  seeking another fix? It happens and the sad part of it is the anger that the person displays towards the child especially behind closed doors? If a drug test is ordered it is up to the judge and if the judge has sufficient reason to order it and feels it will prevail the truth , then I feel it is reasonable to help someone  stop and get on the right path for themself and their child. 

 

 

 

Edited by RoseRed135
to remove quote that did not belong there - only shoppingninja is being quoted here

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1 hour ago, Komorebi said:

Also, if bridges do get burned in the process with the parent/s you can reach out to and perhaps establish / re-establish a relationship with your (general your) grandchild/ren when they become of age -- at which time they too may do the reaching- It's not uncommon- Many grandparents have waited it out-

Hello Komorebi ,

As always and many times where others would keep walking , bridges have been burned , and rebuilt .  And I am always here with opened arms . Bringing adult kids back when their lifestyle has changed so to the point that the path and the people they surround themselves with ( many road blocks )  isn't easy . DD knows how much she is loved . I have been waiting it out we had an agreement , gone again so waiting has been something I got accustomed to . Prayer , gardening, and my studies have helped the sadness. 

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2 hours ago, darkprincess said:

 

Grandnonna I just noticed that this is you. Can you give us update on how the court case went.

 

 

Hope to see the GP visitation law change. It is harsh on kids and GP too.

Edited by RoseRed135
to clear up confusion about who is speaking
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3 hours ago, Mame925 said:

Maybe find a way to make peace with your daughter and the father of your grandchild. Maybe then you won't be turning to outsiders to have a relationship with your grandchild. That's assuming your gchild's parents are reasonably fully functioning adults. If they aren't, help them get what they need to get there rather than manipulate outsiders into giving you what you think you deserve or are owed.

Hello Mame ,

I did make peace. What happens is more yelling at me by the father , more threatening me , hitting me up for money and interfering with my quality time. Sorry you feel I am manipulating outsiders I wrote a petition to revise a law that is hurting many families . 

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2 hours ago, darkprincess said:

OK, I had written a huge rant listing all of the problems with this idea, but it wouldn't be helpful.

I welcome feedback so long as it is not yelling at me. Change is good  lets read your feedback DP

So, instead, GrandNonna I am truly sorry you are missing your grandkids. You clearly love them and want to be part of their lives and that is commendable. The mother of your children may not like you, she may have problems, I don't know and in many ways it doesn't matter. Only a few things really matter here:

1) You should do whatever you need to do to make sure all children are safe. If you or anyone suspect abuse or neglect they should call the authorities. If you have physical custody of the grandchildren and the parents are absent you should do whatever you can to gain legal custody. This is the route grandparents have.

2) Current law does not recognize Grandparents as equal to parents. You need to build a relationship with your grandchildren based on current law. This means that you need to have a positive relationship with the parents of the children. You need to work within the current system or you will run out of time.

3) In some states you can sue in court. If you qualify than that is something to consider, but please recognize this as a nuclear option. If you win great, but if you lose why would the parents want to associate with someone who sued them. Again you need to have a positive relationship with the parents of the children.

I feel for you. But be careful you don't burn all your bridges.

 

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7 hours ago, INCOGNITO said:

GN, do you have an issue? What is it you hope to achieve?

Anonymous poster hash: ea945...f93

I would like to see the law on GP visitation  be revised . Many angry parents have used it to their advantage and abused the power givin . 

 

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7 hours ago, PLS21 said:

Yeah, no.

Feedback ? 

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7 hours ago, shoppingninja said:

Here's the part of the petition that I am referencing:

Ok can you give me an idea what you would write? If there were a law that needed to be written how would you address it?   

"Below are laws that should be put into effect not waiting for a child to become so overwhelmed and psychologically harmed before the courts will take action and order visitation . 

  1.  That a Maternal Grandmother of a child born out of a non marital relationship, who has a loving bond with the child and who was cared for , nurtured and spent more than two days each week visiting and staying overnight for 1 year or more on a regular basis be granted visitation.    
  2.  That the Grandchild , who has a reached a maturity level to state  his/her wishes and that those wishes  of visiting be granted.
  3. That any child born in America out of a non marital relationship who’s praternal or maternal grandparents are immigrants show work visa and other legal documentation , such as birth certificates ,employment and work visa, to protect the child from being removed from the United States by the grandparents .
  4.  That if the biological Father or Mother are under the care of a therapist or physician for treatment of a mental illness or developmental disability which requires prescribed medications to manage the illness ,  who otherwise , refuse to follow  physician orders ,  while engaging in recreational drugs and alcohol as “self  medicating “ be court ordered for drug screening and psychological evaluation at their own cost or by fee waiver .
  5.  That the courts ask for and accept any video recorded communication of a child expressing his wishes within 2 years of visitation denial, who has expressed his wishes of continuing visits , be fully considered . 
  6. That for every 1 day missed with Grandchildren to allow an additional 2 days reunification time. And that for each and every holiday missed to be awarded twice the time for make up of time missed."

 

 

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