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GrandNonna

Topic on Grandparent Visitation and Alienation

143 posts in this topic

6 hours ago, shoppingninja said:

Noncustodial parents don't get double make up days.  Do you mean grandparents? 

Video recordings of small children aren't allowed because there's no way to tell if they were coerced.  That goes for mom, dad, grandma, etc. Where I reside they are especially when in normal conversation with an adult 

Also, just because someone has a visa or a green card doesn't mean they can't remove the child from the US. A passport is required for the child, not the immigration papers of the grandparent.  That whole section doesn't make sense.  GS DOES have passport 

My husband has major depression, PTSD, and anxiety- all diagnosed at one time or another.  I'm offended at the idea that he could potentially be the subject of an investigation and psych eval if he cracks the occasional beer.  I am sorry for DH but he is not a substance abuser . Where drugs are concerned and are abused brings situations to a different level no?

I have more, but I require coffee and the baby needs rescuing from his toys.  

 

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1. As written it is unconstitutional, meaning that the Supreme Court will remove this law from the books if it ever got that far.  When a law is passed, it is a "statute", and all family court stuff falls under the purview of the states, making it a state statute- that's where we get the phrase statutory.  Adding an amendment to the Constitution is a completely different process, which requires a 2/3 majority of both Houses or a constitutional convention.  You can read about it here: https://www.archives.gov/federal-register/constitution/  The kids and I just studied the Constitution (we do a week or 2 on different topics over the summer with the kids, and the 2 weeks around 4th of July is always a "patriotic" topic).  

2, You specified maternal grandmother of a child produced by a non marital relationship.  You tried to put into words what a meaningful relationship with the GC would look like to you- I pointed out the folly of excluding 3/4 of the "grandparent class" you would be representing, and outlining the ways that your potential legislation would be circumvented.  The reason why many GPR state statutes specifically mention living with the child is because that is what it takes to rise to the "de facto parent" status, in other words, to be seen as important as a parent.  Parents have constitutional rights to their children.  Please try to understand that while your own GC's parents may not be stellar, all parents in your state would be affected by the law.  I, for example, should not be lumped in with other people based solely on the fact that I share a stage in life with them.  Also, this section is unconstitutional based on the equal protection clause.  

3.  WRT holidays- alternating holidays doesn't give the parents any right to blaze their own trail.  Years ago, we spent Thanksgiving on a tropical island, without any of my 4 grandparents, without my great grandmother.  There is also no consideration for divorce, either of the parents or of the grandparents.  "Alternating" holidays with 4 grandparents wanting "the day" sounds like an absolute nightmare.  Also, yes, distances and travel do need to be considered, since you're trying to write a law for ALL the children in your state. 

And finally, the last bit about cracking a beer while on his Rx- that's unintended consequences.  We all know *someone* that sees one drink as "drunk" or as a major problem.  Let me put it this way- this past weekend, I had the most beautifully icy cold beer- a Porch Rocker that was just this side of "beer slushie".  In a good way.  I had comments made to me about it- as LO is still nursing.  One beer.  I was told "You should go to a meeting".  Um, well, I don't know how one beer is worthy of joining AA...

35 minutes ago, GrandNonna said:

 

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27 minutes ago, GrandNonna said:
7 hours ago, shoppingninja said:

Noncustodial parents don't get double make up days.  Do you mean grandparents? No, I mean parents that don't have custody.  As in, Timmy lives with Mom, and his dad gets parenting time on every other weekend.  Dad, in that example, is Timmy's NCP, or NonCustodial Parent.  

Video recordings of small children aren't allowed because there's no way to tell if they were coerced.  That goes for mom, dad, grandma, etc. Where I reside they are especially when in normal conversation with an adult My mistake, I meant admissable in a court as evidence.  Of course, you can record videos of your GC for personal use.  

Also, just because someone has a visa or a green card doesn't mean they can't remove the child from the US. A passport is required for the child, not the immigration papers of the grandparent.  That whole section doesn't make sense.  GS DOES have passport OK, but GS's passport is the piece you need for international travel, not the work visa or green card of the grandparents. 

My husband has major depression, PTSD, and anxiety- all diagnosed at one time or another.  I'm offended at the idea that he could potentially be the subject of an investigation and psych eval if he cracks the occasional beer.  I am sorry for DH but he is not a substance abuser . Where drugs are concerned and are abused brings situations to a different level no? It absolutely does, but at no point should that involve me handing my parents the right to access his medical records.  Also, my DH is a current smoker, he has doctor's orders to quit for his overall health.  He has not, as of yet, and is technically in "noncompliance".  I don't know about all states, but technically speaking, a person may not lose custody based solely on the fact that they have a drug problem- there needs to be actual abuse or neglect of the child in order to remove said child.  

I have more, but I require coffee and the baby needs rescuing from his toys.  

HAHAHA! I figured out the double quote thing!  (I'll probably forget by the time I need to use it again!)

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7 hours ago, shoppingninja said:

Noncustodial parents don't get double make up days.  Do you mean grandparents? No, I mean parents that don't have custody.  As in, Timmy lives with Mom, and his dad gets parenting time on every other weekend.  Dad, in that example, is Timmy's NCP, or NonCustodial Parent.     

That is my situation GS father didn't take a paternity DNA test nothing. Yet because in the original petition the lawyer  submitted as him being the biological father messes my case up . He claims to be the "primary caretaker" while DD has not peeped her head out of the rabbit hole to confirm his stories . While his DL filed a judgement against my DD back in 2013 she uses her name in all of her responses . I can't wrap my head around that one . DD seems to be protective of NCP. 

 

Video recordings of small children aren't allowed because there's no way to tell if they were coerced.  That goes for mom, dad, grandma, etc. Where I reside they are especially when in normal conversation with an adult My mistake, I meant admissable in a court as evidence.  Of course, you can record videos of your GC for personal use.  

I had to , it got so overly emotional his expressing to remain at my home on several occasions . The last one was a melt down . But no bruises on his body Law looks at it as a brat fit . I do not though he is a very honest child comfortable to say what is on his mind all the time in my home without even being prepared to hear it . 

Also, just because someone has a visa or a green card doesn't mean they can't remove the child from the US. A passport is required for the child, not the immigration papers of the grandparent.  That whole section doesn't make sense.  GS DOES have passport OK, but GS's passport is the piece you need for international travel, not the work visa or green card of the grandparents. 

The NCP did this one time for 6 weeks to another country that had a terrorist attack in that country . He did not want GS to come visit so he left while DD and I were doing mediation . 

My husband has major depression, PTSD, and anxiety- all diagnosed at one time or another.  I'm offended at the idea that he could potentially be the subject of an investigation and psych eval if he cracks the occasional beer.  I am sorry for DH but he is not a substance abuser . Where drugs are concerned and are abused brings situations to a different level no? It absolutely does, but at no point should that involve me handing my parents the right to access his medical records.  Also, my DH is a current smoker, he has doctor's orders to quit for his overall health.  He has not, as of yet, and is technically in "noncompliance".  I don't know about all states, but technically speaking, a person may not lose custody based solely on the fact that they have a drug problem- there needs to be actual abuse or neglect of the child in order to remove said child.    

You are right . I don't want his records but what I do know , I would like a judge to know to help him make a determination . If he tested positive he should get treatment . Thank you for your constitution  information . Going there now to read :). I too am havin gDunkin DOnuts coffee. Mmm Mmmm Good.   

 

I have more, but I require coffee and the baby needs rescuing from his toys.  

 

 

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GrandNonna, First I strongly object to your assertion on the link that "Denying visitation  to an elder is also a form of Elder abuse." Not only do I disagree but I think the statement is harmful to your cause. Most organizations who advocate for third party visitation do so based on the perspective of the child. This is why everyone talks about what would be harmful to the child. They claim that the child would be hurt without the relationship. By talking about Elder abuse you are basing you claim for visitation on the idea that at some age (whenever a person becomes an Elder) the person will be hurt if they are not around the small children who are related to them. We know that this is not the case. Lots of people over 65 do not have grandchildren living near them or do not have grandchildren at all and they are able to lead productive and happy lives. If you do base visitation on the possible harm of someone other than the child, then a child could not want a relationship with someone but that person could demand it because they really want it. This is not how visitation for anything works.

All of your arguments seem to based on the idea that a grandparent relationship is somehow equal or even more important than the parent/child relationship. The Supreme Court has already said that this is not the case. If you want this to be changed you have to amend the US Constitution to say just that. I don't see how that will ever happen.

The petition also talks about how grandparent visitation should be a right not a privilege. Rights come with responsibilities. If the relationship is a right can I legally sue my mother to visit my children and have them overnight? Grandpa lives across the country can I sue him to fly out and rent a hotel room to see his grandchildren every other week? You can't have it both ways. If it is a right, parents can sue on behalf of their children and force grandparents to take their children to the zoo, to make cookies, etc. We have seen enough grandparents who feel like they are being used as babysitters and wallets that I don't think you would even get all the grandparents to agree with you.

I think what I cut and pasted below is what you are petitioning for, so this is what I am responding to. (Below my notes in bold, cut and paste from petition in italics)

  1. That a Maternal Grandmother of a child born out of a non marital relationship, who has a loving bond with the child and who was cared for , nurtured and spent more than two days each week visiting and staying overnight for 1 year or more on a regular basis be granted visitation.    If there are any rights like this at all, it should be for third parties, by limiting this right to Maternal Grandmothers the law would be asserting that women deserve these more than men, and that Maternal grandparents are more deserving than Paternal. This is discriminatory. In addition, I agree with one of the posters above that pointed out that you have given parents who want to deny visits to grandparents a plan on how to do so. I could simply only allow one of those weeks to have only 1 visit and now there would be no standing to sue. This is why most of the laws call for a substantial relationship. This give the courts latitude to recognize that families are different.
  2.  That the Grandchild , who has a reached a maturity level to state  his/her wishes and that those wishes  of visiting be granted. My understanding is that this already happens and it is up to a judge to decide what this means. This is of course would need to be done in person because it is to easy to lead a child into saying whatever you want on a video.
  3. That any child born in America out of a non marital relationship who’s praternal or maternal grandparents are immigrants show work visa and other legal documentation , such as birth certificates ,employment and work visa, to protect the child from being removed from the United States by the grandparents . It is already illegal for noncustodial parents to remove a child from this country without the parents permission.
  4.  That if the biological Father or Mother are under the care of a therapist or physician for treatment of a mental illness or developmental disability which requires prescribed medications to manage the illness ,  who otherwise , refuse to follow  physician orders ,  while engaging in recreational drugs and alcohol as “self  medicating “ be court ordered for drug screening and psychological evaluation at their own cost or by fee waiver .I don't see how this is even viable. If a judge suspect an unfit parent they can already look into it. It sounds like you are requesting that parents have to proof they are following doctors orders anytime a grandparent tells them to. This is against HIPPA. If you have a concern about the safety of the children there is already an avenue to take, CPS. If you really want this then it should be fair, all parties involved must at their own cost must give up all medical records and be examined by a court appointed physician, drug counselor and therapist. This would include the grandparents.
  5.  That the courts ask for and accept any video recorded communication of a child expressing his wishes within 2 years of visitation denial, who has expressed his wishes of continuing visits , be fully considered . There should be no reason to use video recorded communication it is too easy to lead a child to say what you want them to say. The child should speak to the judge directly and make their wishes known without any of the parents or grandparents in the room, so there will be no outside influence.
  6. That for every 1 day missed with Grandchildren to allow an additional 2 days reunification time. And that for each and every holiday missed to be awarded twice the time for make up of time missed. While I disagree with the forced Grandparent visitation, I think I understand what you are trying to do here. You would like to see consequences to punish parents who do not follow the court's orders. To make a law that has any chance of passing this punishment has to be reasonable and in line with what happens with parental visitation. My suggestion would first be to change your example to something that is extreme. My understanding is that most of the time a grandparent wins visitation they do not get holidays. Holidays are reserved for the parents of the child. So having this as an example will make many people see red and then dismiss your whole proposal. Parents also do not get "double time" for missed days, this is an example of how your argument has the underlining presumption that the grandparent relationship is more important than the parental relationship. Instead you could give the courts authority to set up visitation services like they do with custody arrangements. In some states there are companies that pick up the kids bring them to the other parents house or arrange a neutral location to do the exchange. You could allow the courts to order police to force the exchange. You could allow for contempt charges. There are lots of other options that are more in line with current practice.
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48 minutes ago, shoppingninja said:

1. As written it is unconstitutional, meaning that the Supreme Court will remove this law from the books if it ever got that far.  When a law is passed, it is a "statute", and all family court stuff falls under the purview of the states, making it a state statute- that's where we get the phrase statutory.  Adding an amendment to the Constitution is a completely different process, which requires a 2/3 majority of both Houses or a constitutional convention.  You can read about it here: https://www.archives.gov/federal-register/constitution/  The kids and I just studied the Constitution (we do a week or 2 on different topics over the summer with the kids, and the 2 weeks around 4th of July is always a "patriotic" topic).  

I think that's wonderful part of a class I am involved in at the current involves the constitution . UGH! I hated civics in high school this is the pitts lol! Kudos to you!  

2, You specified maternal grandmother of a child produced by a non marital relationship.  You tried to put into words what a meaningful relationship with the GC would look like to you- I pointed out the folly of excluding 3/4 of the "grandparent class" you would be representing, and outlining the ways that your potential legislation would be circumvented.  The reason why many GPR state statutes specifically mention living with the child is because that is what it takes to rise to the "de facto parent" status, in other words, to be seen as important as a parent.  Parents have constitutional rights to their children.  Please try to understand that while your own GC's parents may not be stellar, all parents in your state would be affected by the law.  I, for example, should not be lumped in with other people based solely on the fact that I share a stage in life with them.  Also, this section is unconstitutional based on the equal protection clause.  

Recently in my area, they no longer use the term out of wedlock so I am trying to get used to non marital relationship which has replaced out of wedlock. I see now i had assumed the reason why they say if the child lived with for 6 or more months. Indeed my case as well. So in other words all parents might not lean on parents and go live home because of the law if they do not have a good relationship with their parents to begin with it could instill fear in them. 

3.  WRT holidays- alternating holidays doesn't give the parents any right to blaze their own trail.  Years ago, we spent Thanksgiving on a tropical island, without any of my 4 grandparents, without my great grandmother.  There is also no consideration for divorce, either of the parents or of the grandparents.  "Alternating" holidays with 4 grandparents wanting "the day" sounds like an absolute nightmare.  Also, yes, distances and travel do need to be considered, since you're trying to write a law for ALL the children in your state. I am and if the law is amended how much less it would cost in legal fees OMG a nightmare in itself. And the lawyers? They love i t!

And finally, the last bit about cracking a beer while on his Rx- that's unintended consequences.  We all know *someone* that sees one drink as "drunk" or as a major problem.  Let me put it this way- this past weekend, I had the most beautifully icy cold beer- a Porch Rocker that was just this side of "beer slushie".  In a good way.  I had comments made to me about it- as LO is still nursing.  One beer.  I was told "You should go to a meeting".  Um, well, I don't know how one beer is worthy of joining AA..

Oh no one beer not at all a concern unless someone is neurotic . Beer slushie ? Sounds different. But this situation is not just beer or wine it is substance other than that . Someone got a little footage of a what looks like to be a delivery of something in a little black pouch . Yet to prove it , one has to be in the room and see it

 

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I understand your concern, but please remember that the biggest family vacation destination city in the US was just attacked by terrorists.  3 years ago a couple of idiots blew up cookware at the Boston Marathon.  Terrorism happens.  

Also, it sounds like your DGS's father has primary custody.  DNA isn't the only way- he could have simply acknowledged paternity formally in court.  Or, alternatively, your DD and her ex could have a 50/50 custody arrangement and don't follow a particular schedule that you can discern.  

Things don't *have* to go through the courts for custody between parents.  They could agree on some very loose terms and have a court order written with ridiculously loose terms, so much so that an outsider couldn't determine where the kid was on a particular day based on court order alone.  On the other end of the spectrum are parents that have the most specific COs ever, with contingencies for their contingencies.  

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16 minutes ago, darkprincess said:

GrandNonna, First I strongly object to your assertion on the link that "Denying visitation  to an elder is also a form of Elder abuse." Not only do I disagree but I think the statement is harmful to your cause. Most organizations who advocate for third party visitation do so based on the perspective of the child. This is why everyone talks about what would be harmful to the child. They claim that the child would be hurt without the relationship. By talking about Elder abuse you are basing you claim for visitation on the idea that at some age (whenever a person becomes an Elder) the person will be hurt if they are not around the small children who are related to them. We know that this is not the case. Lots of people over 65 do not have grandchildren living near them or do not have grandchildren at all and they are able to lead productive and happy lives. If you do base visitation on the possible harm of someone other than the child, then a child could not want a relationship with someone but that person could demand it because they really want it. This is not how visitation for anything works.

All of your arguments seem to based on the idea that a grandparent relationship is somehow equal or even more important than the parent/child relationship. The Supreme Court has already said that this is not the case. If you want this to be changed you have to amend the US Constitution to say just that. I don't see how that will ever happen.

The petition also talks about how grandparent visitation should be a right not a privilege. Rights come with responsibilities. If the relationship is a right can I legally sue my mother to visit my children and have them overnight? Grandpa lives across the country can I sue him to fly out and rent a hotel room to see his grandchildren every other week? You can't have it both ways. If it is a right, parents can sue on behalf of their children and force grandparents to take their children to the zoo, to make cookies, etc. We have seen enough grandparents who feel like they are being used as babysitters and wallets that I don't think you would even get all the grandparents to agree with you.

I think what I cut and pasted below is what you are petitioning for, so this is what I am responding to. (Below my notes in bold, cut and paste from petition in italics)

  1. That a Maternal Grandmother of a child born out of a non marital relationship, who has a loving bond with the child and who was cared for , nurtured and spent more than two days each week visiting and staying overnight for 1 year or more on a regular basis be granted visitation.    If there are any rights like this at all, it should be for third parties, by limiting this right to Maternal Grandmothers the law would be asserting that women deserve these more than men, and that Maternal grandparents are more deserving than Paternal. This is discriminatory. In addition, I agree with one of the posters above that pointed out that you have given parents who want to deny visits to grandparents a plan on how to do so. I could simply only allow one of those weeks to have only 1 visit and now there would be no standing to sue. This is why most of the laws call for a substantial relationship. This give the courts latitude to recognize that families are different.
  2.  That the Grandchild , who has a reached a maturity level to state  his/her wishes and that those wishes  of visiting be granted. My understanding is that this already happens and it is up to a judge to decide what this means. This is of course would need to be done in person because it is to easy to lead a child into saying whatever you want on a video.
  3. That any child born in America out of a non marital relationship who’s praternal or maternal grandparents are immigrants show work visa and other legal documentation , such as birth certificates ,employment and work visa, to protect the child from being removed from the United States by the grandparents . It is already illegal for noncustodial parents to remove a child from this country without the parents permission.
  4.  That if the biological Father or Mother are under the care of a therapist or physician for treatment of a mental illness or developmental disability which requires prescribed medications to manage the illness ,  who otherwise , refuse to follow  physician orders ,  while engaging in recreational drugs and alcohol as “self  medicating “ be court ordered for drug screening and psychological evaluation at their own cost or by fee waiver .I don't see how this is even viable. If a judge suspect an unfit parent they can already look into it. It sounds like you are requesting that parents have to proof they are following doctors orders anytime a grandparent tells them to. This is against HIPPA. If you have a concern about the safety of the children there is already an avenue to take, CPS. If you really want this then it should be fair, all parties involved must at their own cost must give up all medical records andThe child should speak to the judge directly and make their wishes known without any of the parents or grandparents in the room, so there will be no outside influence.. This would include the grandparents.
  5.  That the courts ask for and accept any video recorded communication of a child expressing his wishes within 2 years of visitation denial, who has expressed his wishes of continuing visits , be fully considered . There should be no reason to use video recorded communication it is too easy to lead a child to say what you want them to say. The child should speak to the judge directly and make their wishes known without any of the parents or grandparents in the room, so there will be no outside influence.
  6. That for every 1 day missed with Grandchildren to allow an additional 2 days reunification time. And that for each and every holiday missed to be awarded twice the time for make up of time missed. While I disagree with the forced Grandparent visitation, I think I understand what you are trying to do here. You would like to see consequences to punish parents who do not follow the court's orders. To make a law that has any chance of passing this punishment has to be reasonable and in line with what happens with parental visitation. My suggestion would first be to change your example to something that is extreme. My understanding is that most of the time a grandparent wins visitation they do not get holidays. Holidays are reserved for the parents of the child. So having this as an example will make many people see red and then dismiss your whole proposal. Parents also do not get "double time" for missed days, this is an example of how your argument has the underlining presumption that the grandparent relationship is more important than the parental relationship. Instead you could give the courts authority to set up visitation services like they do with custody arrangements. In some states there are companies that pick up the kids bring them to the other parents house or arrange a neutral location to do the exchange. You could allow the courts to order police to force the exchange. You could allow for contempt charges. There are lots of other options that are more in line with current practice.

Hi DP 

 

Good to hear from you again and thank you for your feedback actually I took out alot on my petition and added your suggestion about the child speaking directly to the judge it makes more sense .I'm working on # 6 and the rest with feedback from several of you . Thank you I couldn't have said it better! 

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12 minutes ago, shoppingninja said:

I understand your concern, but please remember that the biggest family vacation destination city in the US was just attacked by terrorists.  3 years ago a couple of idiots blew up cookware at the Boston Marathon.  Terrorism happens.  

Also, it sounds like your DGS's father has primary custody.  DNA isn't the only way- he could have simply acknowledged paternity formally in court.  Or, alternatively, your DD and her ex could have a 50/50 custody arrangement and don't follow a particular schedule that you can discern.  

Things don't *have* to go through the courts for custody between parents.  They could agree on some very loose terms and have a court order written with ridiculously loose terms, so much so that an outsider couldn't determine where the kid was on a particular day based on court order alone.  On the other end of the spectrum are parents that have the most specific COs ever, with contingencies for their contingencies.  

Never in court he must have had a private company do a DNA and sign the birth certificate . With DD leaving the GSF because of emotional abuse I would be really hurt if she gave GS up to him . If an adult cannot tolerate their S.O. why leave a child where the child expresses he does not like being. Ugh.... 

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GrandNonna, if you ask my SDS's (dear stepdaughter, who I raised from age 7, she's 40 now) mother about her (less than 5) years with DSD's father she would paint you a picture that would make your hair curl. The woman proved herself to be a total flake of a mother with no protective instincts at all. The lie she told to save face was that HE refused to pay child support so she couldn't afford to keep the little girl with her, making her the tragic victim....Horse-hockey. She told it enough I think she believes it herself. The real truth is that she would "forget" to pick the child up at day care (which he paid for) more nights than she remembered, would drop her off for visits then ask him to keep her an extra day (or two or three or four) and so on until he had the child most of the time. So he stopped giving her money because she obviously wasn't spending it on the child. Finally Mom said "you raise her and I get to see her whenever I want"..DONE DEAL. Total win-win for the child.

My point is that unless you live in the relationship you have no idea what really happened or why things with the parents are the way they are.

I think you are pushing a point here that will get you nothing in the long run. The parents will decide who the child spends time with. You, as a grandparent are not a decision maker in this child's life.

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The link reference has been removed. It is available on the GP.com FB page, but may not be linked in the forums.

 

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My kids have a close relationship with my husbands mother. (my mother is out of state and our fathers are both deceased) I have nurtured that relationship for 7 years. They love each other dearly. However, if I felt it was no longer in my kids best interest to visit then that is my right as a parent to protect my kids. You've raised your kids. These are not your kids. I can see why your daughter doesn't want her kids with you. You seek to replace her as mom and force your choices on her and her kids. They will never pass a law that takes so much away from parents. You'd be really hurt if your DD gave her kids to their father? Well, its none of your business and it seems your hurt anyways. These are NOT your children. Oh, and yeah I think your GS was just having a fit. My kid can throw a fit screaming the earth is orange.... it doesn't make it true just because he said it. He is a child and to drag him into this mess is as you say abusive. Leave your DD and him alone and let them live their life. 

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GrandNonna I know this is hard, but you need to understand that he is you grandsons father. He has the same parental rights as the mother, more because the mother abandoned her child. He is the responsible parent. Your daughter didn't give their son to him, he has every right to parent his son.

If she had dropped off her son at your house before she abondanded him he could have showed up and taken custody from you at any time. you need to understand that he is the custodial parent, the father. In addition he is a fit parent. As you told us in previous posts CPS said their concerns were unfounded so he is a fit parent.

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OP I say this with great kindness and care.  This is never ever going to go anywhere.  As many have pointed out what you are asking for flies in the face of so many laws it is baffling.  You are not asking to change "one law" you are asking to change the very make up of what civil liberties being a parent in the US entails.  No judge will touch this with a 50 foot pole.  A parents rights with their child is absolute unless you can prove that it is greatly harming a child.  And considering the law has a difficult time even taking children away from physical abusive parents you will have a practically impossible time convincing them that this will hurt a child mentally. 

Good luck if you chose to pursue this but I think what you should do is invest some time in you own mental wellbeing instead of going on this wild goose chase.

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The issue with what you're proposing is that you are demanding others lose rights, so that you may gain them.

You're asking that parents *lose* rights, to make decisions for their family. All parents.

You want every. single. parent. in the US to have their rights eroded, so that a special interest group (which is what grandparents are) may have what they want...access, regardless of parental consent, to minor children.

I would sincerely hope that any US citizen would refuse to strip parental rights from people who have done nothing to harm their children.

Troxel v. Granville is clear.

Just b/c someone is unmarried should NOT give them less rights over their minor children. They are still the parent. Just b/c they're unmarried, even a lone custodial parent, does not make them any less fit than a married couple, and should not be the basis for allowing others to come in and trample their rights.

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Further, it is my understanding (and please, correct me if I'm wrong) that, for a US citizen to have rights/priviledges removed, it is in response to having committed some sort of crime. You drink and drive, you can lose your licence. You assault someone, you can go to jail. Copyright violations, fines.

You have to do something *wrong* first.

What is being proposed is that, despite not having done anything illegal, parents are punished by losing rights.

How is this a reasonable option?

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6 hours ago, shoppingninja said:

1. As written it is unconstitutional, meaning that the Supreme Court will remove this law from the books if it ever got that far.  When a law is passed, it is a "statute", and all family court stuff falls under the purview of the states, making it a state statute- that's where we get the phrase statutory.  Adding an amendment to the Constitution is a completely different process, which requires a 2/3 majority of both Houses or a constitutional convention.  You can read about it here: https://www.archives.gov/federal-register/constitution/  The kids and I just studied the Constitution (we do a week or 2 on different topics over the summer with the kids, and the 2 weeks around 4th of July is always a "patriotic" topic).  

I think that's wonderful part of a class I am involved in at the current involves the constitution . UGH! I hated civics in high school this is the pitts lol! Kudos to you!  

2, You specified maternal grandmother of a child produced by a non marital relationship.  You tried to put into words what a meaningful relationship with the GC would look like to you- I pointed out the folly of excluding 3/4 of the "grandparent class" you would be representing, and outlining the ways that your potential legislation would be circumvented.  The reason why many GPR state statutes specifically mention living with the child is because that is what it takes to rise to the "de facto parent" status, in other words, to be seen as important as a parent.  Parents have constitutional rights to their children.  Please try to understand that while your own GC's parents may not be stellar, all parents in your state would be affected by the law.  I, for example, should not be lumped in with other people based solely on the fact that I share a stage in life with them.  Also, this section is unconstitutional based on the equal protection clause.  

Recently in my area, they no longer use the term out of wedlock so I am trying to get used to non marital relationship which has replaced out of wedlock. I see now i had assumed the reason why they say if the child lived with for 6 or more months. Indeed my case as well. So in other words all parents might not lean on parents and go live home because of the law if they do not have a good relationship with their parents to begin with it could instill fear in them. 

3.  WRT holidays- alternating holidays doesn't give the parents any right to blaze their own trail.  Years ago, we spent Thanksgiving on a tropical island, without any of my 4 grandparents, without my great grandmother.  There is also no consideration for divorce, either of the parents or of the grandparents.  "Alternating" holidays with 4 grandparents wanting "the day" sounds like an absolute nightmare.  Also, yes, distances and travel do need to be considered, since you're trying to write a law for ALL the children in your state. I am and if the law is amended how much less it would cost in legal fees OMG a nightmare in itself. And the lawyers? They love i t!

And finally, the last bit about cracking a beer while on his Rx- that's unintended consequences.  We all know *someone* that sees one drink as "drunk" or as a major problem.  Let me put it this way- this past weekend, I had the most beautifully icy cold beer- a Porch Rocker that was just this side of "beer slushie".  In a good way.  I had comments made to me about it- as LO is still nursing.  One beer.  I was told "You should go to a meeting".  Um, well, I don't know how one beer is worthy of joining AA..

Oh no one beer not at all a concern unless someone is neurotic . Beer slushie ? Sounds different. But this situation is not just beer or wine it is substance other than that . Someone got a little footage of a what looks like to be a delivery of something in a little black pouch . Yet to prove it , one has to be in the room and see it

ImpishMom 

Not at all my reason. You see, each state has a different visitation law .  I feel that ours should be amended here is why.

It reads that a grandparent must prove that the cut of of visits have en emotional psychological  and physical harm. It is disturbing to 

have it even get to that level. 

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1 minute ago, ImpishMom said:

Further, it is my understanding (and please, correct me if I'm wrong) that, for a US citizen to have rights/priviledges removed, it is in response to having committed some sort of crime. You drink and drive, you can lose your licence. You assault someone, you can go to jail. Copyright violations, fines.

You have to do something *wrong* first.

What is being proposed is that, despite not having done anything illegal, parents are punished by losing rights.

How is this a reasonable option?

Yes. One of the relatives came here undocumented . Found herself one husband in one state, one in another , left a husband

behind in her country and it is frightening the number of times her people flew here but now she has arranged for GS to visit her family.

Our family is rubbed out they seem like the only family they want to have GS recognize is theirs. And to open that up is another  can of worms. 

My wishes are to  put a stop to the manipulation. I am responding to it . I am not at all trying to take from anyone . My GS and GD both 

shared stories about GS father it is not good. 

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8 minutes ago, GrandNonna said:

ImpishMom 

Not at all my reason. You see, each state has a different visitation law .  I feel that ours should be amended here is why.

It reads that a grandparent must prove that the cut of of visits have en emotional psychological  and physical harm. It is disturbing to 

have it even get to that level. 

You cannot demand people lose their rights, when they haven't done anything wrong. It's like sending someone to prison b/c you suspect they will commit a crime in the future. That's like demanding CPS remove a child b/c you believe that the parent will be abusive, but isn't at this time. You don't cause trauma for the child, for the family as a whole, unless there is an actual reason for it.

1 minute ago, GrandNonna said:

Yes. One of the relatives came here undocumented . Found herself one husband in one state, one in another , left a husband

behind in her country and it is frightening the number of times her people flew here but now she has arranged for GS to visit her family.

Our family is rubbed out they seem like the only family they want to have GS recognize is theirs. And to open that up is another  can of worms. 

My wishes are to  put a stop to the manipulation. I am responding to it . I am not at all trying to take from anyone . My GS and GD both 

shared stories about GS father it is not good. 

Just b/c one set of grandparents has a relationship does not validate the demand to erode parental rights.

You cannot demand rights of visitation, against parental wishes, and claim that it's not taking from anyone. It is exactly that, taking away a parent's right to decide what is in the best interest of their child.

The father has been cleared by CPS. He's not found to be harming his child. Ergo, there is no basis under which he should lose his rights to parent his child as he believes best.

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1 hour ago, TheNewNormal said:

OP I say this with great kindness and care.  This is never ever going to go anywhere.  As many have pointed out what you are asking for flies in the face of so many laws it is baffling.  You are not asking to change "one law" you are asking to change the very make up of what civil liberties being a parent in the US entails.  No judge will touch this with a 50 foot pole.  A parents rights with their child is absolute unless you can prove that it is greatly harming a child.  And considering the law has a difficult time even taking children away from physical abusive parents you will have a practically impossible time convincing them that this will hurt a child mentally. 

Good luck if you chose to pursue this but I think what you should do is invest some time in you own mental wellbeing instead of going on this wild goose chase.

Hi NewNormal. 

Not sure if you read my other blogs on the history of the situation but the GS has repeatedly complained . GS father has been very very aggressive with him and with us as well. Approaching this fellow for years before the storm has been exceedingly harsh . You say hi and sit down to ask how things are going and before you can say "you're doing a good job" you are verbally attacked . Something is wrong with the guy . His family knows and do nothing but find it entertaining to see him verbally attack people. The stress alone from thinking he does it to DD and kids is really difficult to digest .  My concern is what has happened to our family the impact he has had on DD alone over the years . When we hear kids say things and we see the behavior of the person ( crying when the kids are going to visit grandma , crawling in the back seat to kiss the other child ( not his ) making her cry when we are tryin g to leave are small samples of the problems this fellow has instilled upon all of us . Yet no one is doing anything . 

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Grand Nonna, I have a few questions for you, of course you are under no obligation to answer them but I hope you will.

1. Is your daughter living with her son, your GD right now?

2. How many months ago did you last see your GS?

3. Other than crying, cavities, being invited to visit family in another country, or multiple marriages of his extended family, what evidence of abuse of your GS do you have? 

4. What is the status of the two lawsuits you have against the father?

The first for guardianship of GS

and the second for grandparents visitation?

5. In other posts you have said that the father has a mental illness, a disability that requires treatment, and you have insinuated that there is a substance abuse issue that is not alcohal or tobacco. To the best of your ability can you 

tell us what the mental illness is?

what the disability is?

what is the substance abuse problem?

thank you

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, GrandNonna said:

Hi NewNormal. 

Not sure if you read my other blogs on the history of the situation but the GS has repeatedly complained . GS father has been very very aggressive with him and with us as well. Approaching this fellow for years before the storm has been exceedingly harsh . You say hi and sit down to ask how things are going and before you can say "you're doing a good job" you are verbally attacked . Something is wrong with the guy . His family knows and do nothing but find it entertaining to see him verbally attack people. The stress alone from thinking he does it to DD and kids is really difficult to digest .  My concern is what has happened to our family the impact he has had on DD alone over the years . When we hear kids say things and we see the behavior of the person ( crying when the kids are going to visit grandma , crawling in the back seat to kiss the other child ( not his ) making her cry when we are tryin g to leave are small samples of the problems this fellow has instilled upon all of us . Yet no one is doing anything . 

This guy may well be the biggest jerk that ever walked upright, I don't know.

From what you've shared, what I *do* know is that your daughter, the mother of these children, has abandoned them. She's not supporting your case.

Being a jerk isn't against the law. Being a jerk isn't cause enough to strip someone's rights, or force them to hand their minor children over to someone, against their wishes.

Perhaps focusing on your daughter, supporting her to become healthy, and able to have a relationship w/her children, is the more important option here. Not as a means to an end for you, but b/c the children need a healthy mother.

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I've tried to word this several times while being blunt but not coming off as a b...I'm pretty sure I havent succeeded completely, so please know I'm not trying to be mean.

23 hours ago, shoppingninja said:

Here's the part of the petition that I am referencing:

 

"Below are laws that should be put into effect not waiting for a child to become so overwhelmed and psychologically harmed before the courts will take action and order visitation . 

  1.  That a Maternal Grandmother of a child born out of a non marital relationship, who has a loving bond with the child and who was cared for , nurtured and spent more than two days each week visiting and staying overnight for 1 year or more on a regular basis be granted visitation.    
  2.  That the Grandchild , who has a reached a maturity level to state  his/her wishes and that those wishes  of visiting be granted.
  3. That any child born in America out of a non marital relationship who’s praternal or maternal grandparents are immigrants show work visa and other legal documentation , such as birth certificates ,employment and work visa, to protect the child from being removed from the United States by the grandparents .
  4.  That if the biological Father or Mother are under the care of a therapist or physician for treatment of a mental illness or developmental disability which requires prescribed medications to manage the illness ,  who otherwise , refuse to follow  physician orders ,  while engaging in recreational drugs and alcohol as “self  medicating “ be court ordered for drug screening and psychological evaluation at their own cost or by fee waiver .
  5.  That the courts ask for and accept any video recorded communication of a child expressing his wishes within 2 years of visitation denial, who has expressed his wishes of continuing visits , be fully considered . 
  6. That for every 1 day missed with Grandchildren to allow an additional 2 days reunification time. And that for each and every holiday missed to be awarded twice the time for make up of time missed."

 

1st part sounds pretentious with including maternal grandmother, it sounds like you are putting maternal at more importance than paternal and is much too specific.

2. They already have this, judges can choose to ask the child, but it is completely up to the judge. Judges know that putting the child in the middle though by asking CAN have ramifications.

3.  This is up to the parents, not you. Again, sounds pretentious and looks like you want parental say in a grandchild, no judge is going to go for that.

4. HIPPA laws. Imagine actually passing this and how many would take advantage of it badly. Just no.

5. Again, putting the child in the middle where they do not belong.

6. Parents don't even get this "double" time. Again sounds like you are putting grandparents above parents.

Ultimately, if a judge were to look at this, they would throw it out. They are going to see that you've fought for visitations (a few times?) and have lost and now it looks like you are just trying to change laws for your individual benefit without the thought of other circumstances where eroding the parental rights and giving more to grandparents could be harmful. This is going to do you absolutely no good and you'll be throwing any credit you do have away.

Let me ask, you say the guy is a jerk... do you think constantly fighting him is making him less of one? Do you think your GS's  home life is better while you are angering him so?

I can have sympathy for your fight, but I'm telling you it's not going to end well. There is a time to fight and then there is a time to wait. Waiting may be the best option. Wait for your GS to become of age and save that money that you would've spent on legal fees to go towards college for him or therapy if need be. You are more than likely not making home life him any better by continuing this fight whether it's creating any angry atmosphere or taking away money his parents do not have to pay for legal fees.

 

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12 hours ago, GrandNonna said:

Hi NewNormal. 

Not sure if you read my other blogs on the history of the situation but the GS has repeatedly complained . GS father has been very very aggressive with him and with us as well. Approaching this fellow for years before the storm has been exceedingly harsh . You say hi and sit down to ask how things are going and before you can say "you're doing a good job" you are verbally attacked . Something is wrong with the guy . His family knows and do nothing but find it entertaining to see him verbally attack people. The stress alone from thinking he does it to DD and kids is really difficult to digest .  My concern is what has happened to our family the impact he has had on DD alone over the years . When we hear kids say things and we see the behavior of the person ( crying when the kids are going to visit grandma , crawling in the back seat to kiss the other child ( not his ) making her cry when we are tryin g to leave are small samples of the problems this fellow has instilled upon all of us . Yet no one is doing anything . 

Like Imp said, dude sounds like a jerk.  Being a jerk does not a criminal make, nor a bad parent.  Also one persons negative experience does not warrant a law change.

your daughter needs to be the one working on getting her child back.  You have just about literally nothing on your side.  Say you do get a judge to hear your proposal to change the law.  That doesn't "poof" make the law change.  To change ANY law, even a minor out of date one can take years.  Nothing in the US court system moves quickly.  The things you are proposing would take many years.  And that is is you got amazingly lucky and had high up law makers greasing the wheels for you.  Your grandson will be practically an adult by that time.

I'm really sorry, I know this is not what you want to hear but really it's not going to happen.  Why not focus on your DD, getting her healthy and to be a fit parent? She then can get custody which will then allow you to see him.  This may seem like a difficult thing but it is SO much easier than changing a law.

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Also if courts became involved every time a child complained about their parent or thought mom or dad were "aggressive" with them the system would be tied up FOREVER.  Parents parent differently, I know you don't like how DGS's dad parents but there is really nothing you can do about it.

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