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GrandNonna

Topic on Grandparent Visitation and Alienation

143 posts in this topic

53 minutes ago, TheNewNormal said:

Like Imp said, dude sounds like a jerk.  Being a jerk does not a criminal make, nor a bad parent.  Also one persons negative experience does not warrant a law change.

your daughter needs to be the one working on getting her child back.  You have just about literally nothing on your side.  Say you do get a judge to hear your proposal to change the law.  That doesn't "poof" make the law change.  To change ANY law, even a minor out of date one can take years.  Nothing in the US court system moves quickly.  The things you are proposing would take many years.  And that is is you got amazingly lucky and had high up law makers greasing the wheels for you.  Your grandson will be practically an adult by that time.

I'm really sorry, I know this is not what you want to hear but really it's not going to happen.  Why not focus on your DD, getting her healthy and to be a fit parent? She then can get custody which will then allow you to see him.  This may seem like a difficult thing but it is SO much easier than changing a law.

Not to mention that Troxel v. Granville has already been before the US Supreme Court. It upheld parental rights. What the OP is proposing directly flies in the face of that, in so many ways.

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7 minutes ago, ImpishMom said:

Not to mention that Troxel v. Granville has already been before the US Supreme Court. It upheld parental rights. What the OP is proposing directly flies in the face of that, in so many ways.

Yep.  She would have an easier time filing for custody of her GS than try to get "visitation."  (Which would also be a nearly impossible task as she has no actual proof of abuse)

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I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the wording suggesting GKs not visiting GPs being elder abuse.  

While I wish you luck, OP, in making sure your GS has a happy and healthy home, I don't think this proposal is going to help you obtain that objective.    

I agree with the other posters who suggested you work on your relationship with your DD.  If she can prove herself to be a responsible parent, she will have more leverage than you.

   

Edited by LilMommy
punctuation
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2 minutes ago, LilMommy said:

I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the wording suggesting GKs not visiting GPs being elder abuse.  

 

   

I must have mentally blocked out that part. I would hate if they truly made that as a term of 'abuse', with actually having a father that was physically and mentally abusive, having him actually be able claim elderly abuse on the fact I refuse to have my children anywhere near him.... I can't even finish that thought without seeing red... just nope.

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Sigh... GN, no doubt, DGS's dad is an odd character, IMO. IDK what effect this will have on DGS in the long run and I would be worried about it, too.

Whether or not there's anything you can do about it, IDK. So far, you haven't really been able to, despite your best efforts. Will this petition make a difference? Maybe yes, maybe no.

Like PPs, though, I'm concerned about the narrow focus on MGMs (even though I am one, myself). And on the idea of lack of visitation being "elder abuse."  As a PP pointed out, what about GPs who are/have been proven to be, in fact, abusive, whether physically or emotionally. Should they be able to cry abuse if the parents keep their kids away from them for the kids' protection? I feel for you and the other GPs referenced in this petition  and video, etc. But, IMO, there are a lot of questions left open.

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17 minutes ago, RoseRed135 said:

Sigh... GN, no doubt, DGS's dad is an odd character, IMO. IDK what effect this will have on DGS in the long run and I would be worried about it, too.

Whether or not there's anything you can do about it, IDK. So far, you haven't really been able to, despite your best efforts. Will this petition make a difference? Maybe yes, maybe no.

Like PPs, though, I'm concerned about the narrow focus on MGMs (even though I am one, myself). And on the idea of lack of visitation being "elder abuse."  As a PP pointed out, what about GPs who are/have been proven to be, in fact, abusive, whether physically or emotionally. Should they be able to cry abuse if the parents keep their kids away from them for the kids' protection? I feel for you and the other GPs referenced in this petition  and video, etc. But, IMO, there are a lot of questions left open.

Not getting what you want is NOT abuse. Especially if what you want is access to someone else's minor children, without parental consent.

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Also, the associated video was more about the effects of parental alienation on a child, than lack of GP visits.

I wonder if the video might hurt your case more than help it, GN.  

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32 minutes ago, LilMommy said:

I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the wording suggesting GKs not visiting GPs being elder abuse.  

snipped

   

I guess it would be Elder abuse for a couple to chose not to have children, or to move away from where a grandparent lived. I am not sure what you would do if there was divorce and each of the grandparents live in 4 separate states, Elder abuse for everyone.

At what age are you an Elder. My Aunt in law became a grandmother when she was 45. I don't consider that age to be an Elder, so no visits for her would be fine until she was older.

Does this only work if the children are blood relatives, so not seeing adopted or step kids wouldn't be Elder abuse. For paternal grandparents you would not have Elder abuse until you can proof that their adult son is really the father of the grandchild, and then the Paternal GF would also have to prove that the Adult Son was his off spring (no cheating or adultery). If the abuse relates to a grandmotherly type relationship I guess the answer is to have all Elders volunteer at preschools so they can have the relationship. My neighbor is more of a grandparent to my kids that their grandfather, if we move away are we committing Elder abuse unless we allow visits?

Yes I know I am being absurd. But when you extend this theory of Elder abuse to it's eventual outcome it just doesn't make sense. 

The same thing can be done if you say children suffer without visits to grandparents, which would be the argument to say that all grandparents have visitation rights, vs the current system that grandparents have the right to sue if they qualify. Again I am being absurd by extending an idea to it's natural consequences. My FIL lives 3000 miles away, we only see him every few years. My children are not suffering for the lack of a relationship, but may I should be able to force him to visit every month so my children have the relationship. My mom doesn't visit us, she has declined the last 5 invitation I have given her including my daughters birthday. We haven't seen her in months. My daughter's feelings are hurt that she doesn't invite us over and she doesn't accept our invitations, should I be able to sue her and force her to visit. I know she can't drive the 60 plus miles to my house (although she can drive the 40+ miles to a church event) so the courts could order her to take a train, public transportation, etc.

I don't like the idea of grandparent visitation, however I recognize that there are some very specific cases where it might make sense. I believe that it should be possible when a grandparent or any third party is the de facto parent for an extended period of time and the current custodial parent has cut off all visits and the child can make their wishes known to the judge in person without outside influence and an independent authority can determine that the visits will cause no harm to the child or the parent child relationship. So If there is any reason to suspect parental alienation by the grandparent, any hint of a GP not respecting religious choices, dietary restrictions, safety issues such as car seats, dangerous dogs, etc then the visitation should not be allowed. With these restrictions third party visitation would be very very rare.

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45 minutes ago, darkprincess said:

I guess it would be Elder abuse for a couple to chose not to have children, That's what I was thinking.  If such legislation is passed (yeah, I know, fat chance) wouldn't the next step be petitioning the court to force AC/ACILs to try to conceive and/or adopt in order to provide the GP with grandchildren?  or to move away from where a grandparent lived. I am not sure what you would do if there was divorce and each of the grandparents live in 4 separate states, Elder abuse for everyone.

At what age are you an Elder. My Aunt in law became a grandmother when she was 45. I don't consider that age to be an Elder, so no visits for her would be fine until she was older.

Does this only work if the children are blood relatives, so not seeing adopted or step kids wouldn't be Elder abuse. For paternal grandparents you would not have Elder abuse until you can proof that their adult son is really the father of the grandchild, and then the Paternal GF would also have to prove that the Adult Son was his off spring (no cheating or adultery). If the abuse relates to a grandmotherly type relationship I guess the answer is to have all Elders volunteer at preschools so they can have the relationship. My neighbor is more of a grandparent to my kids that their grandfather, if we move away are we committing Elder abuse unless we allow visits?

Yes I know I am being absurd. But when you extend this theory of Elder abuse to it's eventual outcome it just doesn't make sense. 

The same thing can be done if you say children suffer without visits to grandparents, which would be the argument to say that all grandparents have visitation rights, vs the current system that grandparents have the right to sue if they qualify. Again I am being absurd by extending an idea to it's natural consequences. My FIL lives 3000 miles away, we only see him every few years. My children are not suffering for the lack of a relationship, but may I should be able to force him to visit every month so my children have the relationship. My mom doesn't visit us, she has declined the last 5 invitation I have given her including my daughters birthday. We haven't seen her in months. My daughter's feelings are hurt that she doesn't invite us over and she doesn't accept our invitations, should I be able to sue her and force her to visit. I know she can't drive the 60 plus miles to my house (although she can drive the 40+ miles to a church event) so the courts could order her to take a train, public transportation, etc.  

I don't like the idea of grandparent visitation, however I recognize that there are some very specific cases where it might make sense. I believe that it should be possible when a grandparent or any third party is the de facto parent for an extended period of time and the current custodial parent has cut off all visits and the child can make their wishes known to the judge in person without outside influence and an independent authority can determine that the visits will cause no harm to the child or the parent child relationship. So If there is any reason to suspect parental alienation by the grandparent, any hint of a GP not respecting religious choices, dietary restrictions, safety issues such as car seats, dangerous dogs, etc then the visitation should not be allowed. With these restrictions third party visitation would be very very rare.

Likewise, wouldn't it be considered child abuse if a GP wouldn't/couldn't visit or make one or more of the child's events they were invited to?  

Is there no end to the absurdity?  

 

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On 7/7/2016 at 4:00 PM, GrandNonna said:

Hello Komorebi ,

As always and many times where others would keep walking , bridges have been burned , and rebuilt .  And I am always here with opened arms . Bringing adult kids back when their lifestyle has changed so to the point that the path and the people they surround themselves with ( many road blocks )  isn't easy . DD knows how much she is loved . I have been waiting it out we had an agreement , gone again so waiting has been something I got accustomed to . Prayer , gardening, and my studies have helped the sadness. 

I think we all find our own way to get on with our lives after losses of any kind- So, you are not alone- I've see people walk out of peoples lives and back into them time and again- And sometimes what's in the best interest of a child seems like a complete mystery, I mean anything beyond the basics children need to survive- Some children grow up and ask why didn't you fight for them because not doing so created heartache while others grow up and ask why you fought for them because doing so created heartache- While it seems like a no win scenario it isn't- It simply boils down to making decisions based on which can be lived with- Children grow, and with it their view and understanding of circumstances expands and they learn that people do what they do no matter if they agree or don't- Hang in there! I hope your garden is doing better than ours!

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On 7/7/2016 at 3:46 PM, shoppingninja said:

Good morning Komorebi ,

All that I can do is continue to stay in touch. While I have had the guardianship case dismissed there is one connected case to it with them asking the file to be impounded .Basically they didn't want the truth be known when it came back at them after a false allegation made against me making a call. Now they rant to make it go away supress the truth oh my . While all this goes on the focus is unbalanced and off topic . I know my GS will never forget who I am and ask about me often and be told in time son in time or in a few days as he has in the past and ignoring the child . I think my GS will be happy to learn that I hung in there with him and I pray his Dr helps find information as well . That is pending. I'd like to learn ore about your situation , sounds like I need to read up . I am  going to spend time in my garden today too. 

ImpishMom 

Not at all my reason. You see, each state has a different visitation law .  I feel that ours should be amended here is why.

It reads that a grandparent must prove that the cut of of visits have en emotional psychological  and physical harm. It is disturbing to 

have it even get to that level. 

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18 hours ago, LilMommy said:

I have to go find the signs of what the law considers elder abuse. I know isolation is one of them , talking to them like they are a child is another . Both have happened here. 

 

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19 hours ago, darkprincess said:

I guess it would be Elder abuse for a couple to chose not to have children, or to move away from where a grandparent lived. I am not sure what you would do if there was divorce and each of the grandparents live in 4 separate states, Elder abuse for everyone.

 

. Age 60 is considered an elder

I dont think it is abuse to cut off a visit  but the article I had read which I will share later when I look it up again views abuse as isolation , alienation, ignoring, silent treatment , talking to an older person as if they are a child , saying things like behave yourself , etc.

 

The same thing can be done if you say children suffer without visits to grandparents, which would be the argument to say that all grandparents have visitation rights, vs the current system that grandparents have the right to sue if they qualify. Again I am being absurd by extending an idea to it's natural consequences. My FIL lives 3000 miles away, we only see him every few years. My children are not suffering for the lack of a relationship, but may I should be able to force him to visit every month so my children have the relationship. My mom doesn't visit us, she has declined the last 5 invitation I have given her including my daughters birthday. We haven't seen her in months. My daughter's feelings are hurt that she doesn't invite us over and she doesn't accept our invitations, should I be able to sue her and force her to visit. I know she can't drive the 60 plus miles to my house (although she can drive the 40+ miles to a church event) so the courts could order her to take a train, public transportation, etc.

No there has to be a strong bond between the child and grandparent . And the cut off has to be 30 days or longer . Grandparent would have to have cared for the child meaning when the parent went to work , or baby sat regularly and or lived with GP for 6 months or longer. That is when GP have rights. 

I don't like the idea of grandparent visitation, however I recognize that there are some very specific cases where it might make sense. I believe that it should be possible when a grandparent or any third party is the de facto parent for an extended period of time and the current custodial parent has cut off all visits and the child can make their wishes known to the judge in person without outside influence and an independent authority can determine that the visits will cause no harm to the child or the parent child relationship. So If there is any reason to suspect parental alienation by the grandparent, any hint of a GP not respecting religious choices, dietary restrictions, safety issues such as car seats, dangerous dogs, etc then the visitation should not be allowed. With these restrictions third party visitation would be very very rare.

 

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20 hours ago, ImpishMom said:

 I would not do anything without consent .  

 

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20 hours ago, RoseRed135 said:

Sigh... GN, no doubt, DGS's dad is an odd character, IMO. IDK what effect this will have on DGS in the long run and I would be worried about it, too.

Yeah a real character alright. I truly wish he would treat his developmental disability he has no clue the outcomes that would benefit him.

Whether or not there's anything you can do about it, IDK. So far, you haven't really been able to, despite your best efforts. Will this petition make a difference? Maybe yes, maybe not . Not sure either

 

 concerned about the narrow focus on MGMs (even though I am one, myself). And on the idea of lack of visitation being "elder abuse."  As a PP pointed out, what about GPs who are/have been proven to be, in fact, abusive, whether physically or emotionally. Should they be able to cry abuse if the parents keep their kids away from them for the kids' protection? I feel for you and the other GPs referenced in this petition  and video, etc. But, IMO, there are a lot of questions left open.

With MGM , it looks at it as a biological connection and a stronger part of that child as the MGM is the mother of the maternal parent . I look at it that way too . Same womb flesh of my flesh closer in relation to genetics especially if the child born is a female. Ii think in any abusive situation children come first. Emotional abuse is a scare forever . 

 

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34 minutes ago, GrandNonna said:

I have to go find the signs of what the law considers elder abuse. I know isolation is one of them , talking to them like they are a child is another. Both have happened here. 

35 minutes ago, GrandNonna said:

ImpishMom 

Not at all my reason. You see, each state has a different visitation law .  I feel that ours should be amended here is why. It reads that a grandparent must prove that the cut of of visits have en emotional psychological  and physical harm. It is disturbing to have it even get to that level. 

As a parent who has had an AC suffer real abuse, I find your assertions of elder abuse absurd at a minimum and quite hurtful. eta: Ridiculous at best.

19 minutes ago, GrandNonna said:

With MGM , it looks at it as a biological connection and a stronger part of that child as the MGM is the mother of the maternal parent . I look at it that way too . Same womb flesh of my flesh closer in relation to genetics especially if the child born is a female.

Beings we only have *likes* I'm screaming this: "I DISLIKE the above sentiment, I HATE it".

Edited by JanelleK
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Nope you are wrong on genetics. You have a closer link genetically if you had a son and then your son had a daughter. Your daughter has more genetic link with her father and therefore more genetic link with her PATERNAL grandparents.

Edited by Mame925
spelling to clarify
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On ‎7‎/‎7‎/‎2016 at 7:18 PM, Nalyah said:

My kids have a close relationship with my husbands mother. (my mother is out of state and our fathers are both deceased) I have nurtured that relationship for 7 years. They love each other dearly. However, if I felt it was no longer in my kids best interest to visit then that is my right as a parent to protect my kids. You've raised your kids. These are not your kids. I can see why your daughter doesn't want her kids with you. You seek to replace her as mom and force your choices on her and her kids. They will never pass a law that takes so much away from parents. You'd be really hurt if your DD gave her kids to their father? Well, its none of your business and it seems your hurt anyways. These are NOT your children. Oh, and yeah I think your GS was just having a fit. My kid can throw a fit screaming the earth is orange.... it doesn't make it true just because he said it. He is a child and to drag him into this mess is as you say abusive. Leave your DD and him alone and let them live their life. 

Welcome, Nalyah! Glad you came in to share your thoughts w/ us!

IDK how familiar you are w/ the OP's backstory, of course. And I'm not sure it's fair to say she "seek(s) to replace (DD) as mom" - DD has, apparently, abandoned DGS (though, granted, not DGD). Perhaps you mean that she is trying to fill the void that DD left where DGS is concerned? I'm not clear on this...

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Adults can, and do, get divorced, despite vowing for life.

The idea that a child, who has entered no such contract, simply by virtue of being born, is then committed, without consent or option, to having a life time relationship with anyone, despite not *choosing* the relationship at all, and if they grow up and decide that the relationship is unhealthy and cannot continue, is somehow ABUSING the person they no longer wish to have a relationship with, is ridiculous, imo. Its not abusive to end a relationship, for *any* reason. We're talking adults, not minor children.

And you *are* talking about going against parental consent. You are looking to enact a LAW that does what you want, regardless of the parents.

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17 minutes ago, GrandNonna said:

 With MGM, it looks as if it is a biological connection and a stronger part of that child as the MGM is the mother of the maternal parent. I look at it that way too. Same womb flesh of my flesh closer in relation to genetics especially if the child born is a female.

Whoa! My guess is that there are PGMs both here and elsewhere who would take issue w/ this concept ^^^! But IDK what the legislators will think, of course.

@PLS21 - I please ignorance as to how the genetic connections work here. But did you mean to say "PATERNAL grandparents?"

5 minutes ago, PLS21 said:

Nope you are wrong on genetics. You have a closer link genetically if you had a son and then your son had a daughter. Your daughter has more genetic link with her father and therefore more genetic link with her PARENTAL grandparents.

 

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Just now, RoseRed135 said:

Whoa! My guess is that there are PGMs both here and elsewhere who would take issue w/ this concept ^^^! But IDK what the legislators will think, of course.

@PLS21 - I please ignorance as to how the genetic connections work here. But did you mean to say "PATERNAL grandparents?"

 

Yes, haha I tried fixing that twice.. it keeps going back to parental..

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I think a lot are confused on how genetics work, most assume a girl has more with her mother and a boy to his father, but actually it goes boy,girl,boy,girl or girl,boy,girl,boy (depending on who are starting with)...though the "more genetic link" truly is slight. A mother carries 51% genetic link to her son while her daughter carries 49% genetic link to her mother.

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I am curious about the article about isolation and ignoring being elder abuse. I imagine the article is talking about elders in need of care either by family members or by care takers like an nursing home. That's elder abuse if they are in a home and having their needs ignored, punished by staff members into isolation, talked down upon by staff members, etc... it is more than likely not talking about an able bodied elder not getting their way when it comes to seeing an minor.

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I edited PLS21's spelling oopsie for clarification....we all know what she meant.

 

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5 minutes ago, Mame925 said:

I edited PLS21's spelling oopsie for clarification....we all know what she meant.

 

THANK YOU. I'm not sure why it wasn't allowing me to correct it. 

 

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