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GrandNonna

Topic on Grandparent Visitation and Alienation

143 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, PLS21 said:

I am curious about the article about isolation and ignoring being elder abuse. I imagine the article is talking about elders in need of care either by family members or by care takers like an nursing home. That's elder abuse if they are in a home and having their needs ignored, punished by staff members into isolation, talked down upon by staff members, etc... it is more than likely not talking about an able bodied elder not getting their way when it comes to seeing an minor.

Exactly. Isolation, etc, is an in person abuse. It's having a dependant elder confined, not allowing them access to outside people, it's ACTIVE mistreatment.

Refusing to have a relationship is NOT abuse. Not getting what you want, is NOT abuse.

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1 hour ago, PLS21 said:

Nope you are wrong on genetics. You have a closer link genetically if you had a son and then your son had a daughter. Your daughter has more genetic link with her father and therefore more genetic link with her PATERNAL grandparents.

Wow I  never thought of this. SO my granddaughter is more linked to her father? Because she has his coloring but my frame. My GS has his mothers and mine features when I was younger  and has her hair color but my DD looks exactly like her father . 

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9 minutes ago, ImpishMom said:

Exactly. Isolation, etc, is an in person abuse. It's having a dependant elder confined, not allowing them access to outside people, it's ACTIVE mistreatment.

Refusing to have a relationship is NOT abuse. Not getting what you want, is NOT abuse.

So when you are singled out of holidays and times you once had that is choice not abuse?

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1 minute ago, GrandNonna said:

So when you are singled out of holidays and times you once had that is choice not abuse?

Yes.

It is not abuse to not receive an invitation.

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On 7/7/2016 at 6:18 PM, Nalyah said:

My kids have a close relationship with my husbands mother. (my mother is out of state and our fathers are both deceased) I have nurtured that relationship for 7 years. They love each other dearly. However, if I felt it was no longer in my kids best interest to visit then that is my right as a parent to protect my kids. You've raised your kids. These are not your kids. I can see why your daughter doesn't want her kids with you. You seek to replace her as mom and force your choices on her and her kids. They will never pass a law that takes so much away from parents. You'd be really hurt if your DD gave her kids to their father? Well, its none of your business and it seems your hurt anyways. These are NOT your children. Oh, and yeah I think your GS was just having a fit. My kid can throw a fit screaming the earth is orange.... it doesn't make it true just because he said it. He is a child and to drag him into this mess is as you say abusive. Leave your DD and him alone and let them live their life. 

Actually Nylah that is way wrong and no where near how close i am to my daughter . I do not seek to replace her that would be a psychological issue and I know about people who are like that . I have a unique very special bond with my grandchildren . I have had to make my DD stop hitting them stop screaming at them stop dragging them into a room to hit . and yell . I have sat down with her and calmly tried to bring to the tables how this is going to hurt these children. I have advocated for her and directed her to a womens shelter when she was full of bumps on her head and emotional  passivitity towards her abusive relationships in her life. Please do not judge me for you know nothing about this nightmare. As a single mother I spent hours into the morning fearful that something happened to her when she would jump out of her bedroom window and go hang out with another gal . Until someone has walked in my shoes there is no room to judge . Thank you . 

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23 hours ago, LilMommy said:

I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the wording suggesting GKs not visiting GPs being elder abuse.  

While I wish you luck, OP, in making sure your GS has a happy and healthy home, I don't think this proposal is going to help you obtain that objective.    

I agree with the other posters who suggested you work on your relationship with your DD.  If she can prove herself to be a responsible parent, she will have more leverage than you.

   

Thank you I am greatful for all the posters feedback it truly does help when answers are hard to find. 

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7 minutes ago, GrandNonna said:

So when you are singled out of holidays and times you once had that is choice not abuse?

Of course it's someone's choice, not abuse.

Our eldest GS wrote Peyton Manning and asked for Super Bowl tickets. By Peyton's choice (also likely and logically, perhaps the team he plays for) our GS's request was not granted. But, darn it, we all saw Ashley and the kids, and Eli in the box seats with Archie, Olivia, Cooper etc etc. No room for our GS, what a shame. :) 

As others have said, work to get on better terms with your DD, she is the mother and has rights.

 

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Not getting your way is not abuse.

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43 minutes ago, GrandNonna said:

Wow I  never thought of this. SO my granddaughter is more linked to her father? Because she has his coloring but my frame. My GS has his mothers and mine features when I was younger  and has her hair color but my DD looks exactly like her father . 

Looks and genetics are different things, they can coincide but that doesn't mean they are the same. My DD is my mini twin and my DS is my husband's  (and FIL) mini twin to the point of putting pictures side by side you'd think it was the same child. BUT DS is more genetically connected to me despite having zero features/coloring like me. Hence why he has the same genetic disease that I do. (We went to a genetics doctor when wanting a 2nd to see how likely it would be to have another child like ds, which is when we were told how genetics work.If we have a boy it's 75% likely, but if we have a daughter,since she would have more of her father's genetic makeup, it's less than 5%.)  And genetics are funny with looks, while looking at people who are living and say "well SO's and so GC has my frame" so and so could've actually gotten that frame/looks from much farther down the genetic line from the other side of the family.

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Gene pools are crapshoots at best. My #1GS is built like and has a similar skills set to his maternal uncle....he looks remarkably like his mother (who is Caucasian) yet you know instantly by looking at him he is significantly Asian (his dad is Chinese). If you ask GS to show you the palm of his hand you will see a straight "simian" line....neither of his parents has the straight line....but I do. My son (the above mentioned maternal uncle) looks ridiculously like MY (paternal) Uncle Fred....both my kids got the ridiculously enormous blue eyes from their dad's family, a very strong trait as all 11 bio GK from that family have them as well, although not all are blue. I resemble my father's family, my sister resembles our mother's yet you can tell we are related and our kids look enough alike they could be siblings rather than cousins.

Ya just never know.

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GN.  I don't get your logic in this petition.  However, if you want access to these children at this time I'd suggest not suing the parents for rights that are protected by our constitution.   Your "special relationship" is apparently not what DD thinks is in her child's best interest.  As far as elder abuse is concerned, no cutting you out of family events or holidays is not abuse.  Sounds like your DD is doing what is best for her and her kids.

This battle will end and your grandchildren will get older and wiser.  They will also be able to discern healthy people from toxic people.  Suing their parents is a toxic move, especially if they are taken care of and love and most of all protected

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21 hours ago, GrandNonna said:

I have to go find the signs of what the law considers elder abuse.  I know isolation is one of them, talking to them like they are a child is another.  Both have happened here.

 

19 hours ago, GrandNonna said:

So when you are singled out of holidays and times you once had that is choice not abuse?

GN, are you saying that not inviting you for a holiday, that your were invited to in prior years, isolates you?

I understand how you would be disappointed, but I don't know how it isolates you.  Does not being invited prevent you from interacting or spending time with other people?  

I don't understand where folks get the idea that being invited to a yearly event at someone's house automatically entitles them to future invites.  When someone verbalizes that expectation of me, regardless of my circumstances behind not inviting them or having the event, it causes me psychological stress.  Are they now abusing me?  (I'm not saying they are.  I'm just pointing out how ridiculous things can get if we start down that route.)

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12 minutes ago, LilMommy said:

 

GN, are you saying that not inviting you for a holiday, that your were invited to in prior years, isolates you?

I understand how you would be disappointed, but I don't know how it isolates you.  Does not being invited prevent you from interacting or spending time with other people?  

I don't understand where folks get the idea that being invited to a yearly event at someone's house automatically entitles them to future invites.  When someone verbalizes that expectation of me, regardless of my circumstances behind not inviting them or having the event, it causes me psychological stress.  Are they now abusing me?  (I'm not saying they are.  I'm just pointing out how ridiculous things can get if we start down that route.)

Yes to all of this.

Isolation means not allowing someone contact with the outside world.

It is impossible to isolate someone that you do not have care and control of.

Refusing interaction with someone is not isolating them. They still have the ability to interact with others, just not that particular person(s).

Again, I go back to divorce.

That's the ending of a relationship. Often including limited, or no direct contact afterwards (depending on if there are minor children involved, resulting in co-parenting). It's not abusive to refuse to continue a relationship, or to end the contract you entered into as an adult.

So why on Earth is ending a relationship when there is NO contract, no choice on the part of one party, somehow abusive? Why are AC held to a higher standard than that of two adults who willingly and knowingly, entered into a lifetime commitment?

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4 hours ago, LilMommy said:

 

GN, are you saying that not inviting you for a holiday, that your were invited to in prior years, isolates you?

I understand how you would be disappointed, but I don't know how it isolates you.  Does not being invited prevent you from interacting or spending time with other people?  

I don't understand where folks get the idea that being invited to a yearly event at someone's house automatically entitles them to future invites.  When someone verbalizes that expectation of me, regardless of my circumstances behind not inviting them or having the event, it causes me psychological stress.  Are they now abusing me?  (I'm not saying they are.  I'm just pointing out how ridiculous things can get if we start down that route.)

Which is also what another can experience when not invited -- which is what I think GN is suggesting, in so many words- Just using the wrong terms to express hurt-

Elder abuse, I think, is something that only a caregiver can be accused of, if I'm not mistaken- I think that person/caregiver has to be responsible for the elderly individual's wellbing/health/safety- In GN's case, it doesn't sound like anyone is responsible for caring for her in that manner, that she is independent- But I truly don't know for certain ..

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14 minutes ago, Komorebi said:

Which is also what another can experience when not invited -- which is what I think GN is suggesting, in so many words- Just using the wrong terms to express hurt-

Elder abuse, I think, is something that only a caregiver can be accused of, if I'm not mistaken- I think that person/caregiver has to be responsible for the elderly individual's wellbing/health/safety- In GN's case, it doesn't sound like anyone is responsible for caring for her in that manner, that she is independent- But I truly don't know for certain ..

Exactly. 'Dependancy' is a key element when discussing neglect in reference to elder abuse.

 Hurt feelings isn't abuse. Not being included isn't abuse. Not getting the amount of time/attention/visits you believe yourself entitled to isn't abuse. 

I see absolutely no validity in the claims that not having a relationship w/a gc is either elder abuse, and/or child abuse.

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13 minutes ago, ImpishMom said:

Exactly. 'Dependancy' is a key element when discussing neglect in reference to elder abuse.

 Hurt feelings isn't abuse. Not being included isn't abuse. Not getting the amount of time/attention/visits you believe yourself entitled to isn't abuse. 

I see absolutely no validity in the claims that not having a relationship w/a gc is either elder abuse, and/or child abuse.

Having established what it isn't, what's your take on what it is?

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21 minutes ago, Komorebi said:

Having established what it isn't, what's your take on what it is?

Life?

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4 hours ago, ImpishMom said:

Yes to all of this.

Isolation means not allowing someone contact with the outside world.

It is impossible to isolate someone that you do not have care and control of.

Refusing interaction with someone is not isolating them. They still have the ability to interact with others, just not that particular person(s).

Again, I go back to divorce.

That's the ending of a relationship. Often including limited, or no direct contact afterwards (depending on if there are minor children involved, resulting in co-parenting). It's not abusive to refuse to continue a relationship, or to end the contract you entered into as an adult.

So why on Earth is ending a relationship when there is NO contract, no choice on the part of one party, somehow abusive? Why are AC held to a higher standard than that of two adults who willingly and knowingly, entered into a lifetime commitment?

The idea of being isolated I think is brought about in this instance by change in relationship- GN feels alone- She is not alone, of course- But it may feel that way to her-

What you mention about contracts is interesting- But it seems GN and her daughter had an agreement- Granted life happens and when it does it doesn't seem anyone is free of feeling disappointed by it at times, like when someone doesn't keep their agreement -- which may be what GN is experiencing- Down and dirty disappointment, frustration and heartache- I don't know what it is exactly that makes even the strongest of people weakened by situations that involve children they love- I can't put my finger on it exactly- We don't need a contract to love people- We can do that without one- And since there pretty much isn't a contract in existence that binds a GC to a GP even in the most normal conditions possible, that alone makes it seems that there's no need to create any false sense of security in our (general) minds that GC (or anyone, really) will always be a part of our lives- Whatever time spent with GC was/is precious and no less when with their AC they were children- Perhaps at the heart of GN's hurt is that she became attached to her GC and is struggling with that more than anything- Not necessarily what she thinks her rights are, but for the moment exploring that avenue doesn't hurt as much as examining her own heart-

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27 minutes ago, PLS21 said:

Life?

Good 'enough! LMAO!

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GrandNonna,

I know you are hurt by this situation. I would be too. You love your grandchildren, you love your daughter, you want all them to be safe and happy. I would do absolutely anything to keep my children safe. But you need to think rationally and clearly and not act on emotion. Thoughtful action will do you more good than anger and reacting. You need to look clearly at what the current situation is and what your current rights are. Then you need to act within those rights.

Currently you have no independent rights to see your grandkids. You have already started a lawsuit to ask for visitation. While I think this is counter productive, the damage is done and you might as well finish this. But act cautiously, any attack on the father will be seen as hostile and will hurt you chances to see your grandson if you lose. If you win he will still remember the attacks and he will be able to make visits difficult and uncomfortable. Focus on the positive relationship you and your grandson have. This should be why you get visitation not because you dislike his father.

You need to clearly see and understand the situation you are in. You continually claim that the father is abusive, mentally ill, disabled, etc. None of that matters. He is the father. He has custody. CPS investigated him and declared him a fit parent/found the charges as unfounded. Stop bringing up abusive, mentally ill, disabled unless you have clear evidence that is current. CPS and the courts will see you bringing up past wrong doing and they will not look kindly on it. You have lost your case for guardianship and any further rehashing of negative history will hurt your case for visitation, not help it.

Making claims of Elderabuse, trying to rewrite laws, attacking the father: these do not help your case. These are the acts of someone who is acting in desperation, pain, and hurt. I think you need to think about the advice they give you on an airplane. In case of loss of cabin pressure, the stewards tell us to put our masks on first and then put masks on children/others. The point is that you need to take care of yourself first or you wont be able to take care of others. GrandNonna I believe that the hurt you feel is causing you to not see clearly. You are acting out of anger, fear, and desperation and your choices might actually be hurting your chances of having a relationship with your grandkids.

Please take care of yourself. Get a hobby, volunteer at a school to read to kindergarteners, see a counselor. I have seen posts about people who write a journal to the grandkids they cant see that they can give to the kids when they are older. Keep a box for each grandkids to give to them when they are older. Keep it positive and happy. Put in the birthday cards that you wanted to give them, letters that say how much you love them. Start a facebook page. At some point they will be old enough to have one and they may seek you out.

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When one distorts a term or theory to fit their agenda, it is not looked at favorably and that person loses credibility.   

Using terms such as elder abuse to describe estrangement is demeaning to victims of *actual* elder abuse.  

Parental alienation is specific to parents and minor children.  It does not describe alienation between a parent and their adult offspring that begins in adulthood.

It may feel just as terrible as actual parental alienation or elder abuse, it may feel as terrible as a death in the family, but it is not the same.  Words mean things.  

When someone speaks in such hyperbole and uses the term elder abuse, the question becomes why have they not reported it to the authorities that investigate elder abuse?  Same with child abuse.  

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2 hours ago, darkprincess said:

GrandNonna,

I know you are hurt by this situation. I would be too. You love your grandchildren, you love your daughter, you want all them to be safe and happy. I would do absolutely anything to keep my children safe. But you need to think rationally and clearly and not act on emotion. Thoughtful action will do you more good than anger and reacting. You need to look clearly at what the current situation is and what your current rights are. Then you need to act within those rights.

Currently you have no independent rights to see your grandkids. You have already started a lawsuit to ask for visitation. While I think this is counter productive, the damage is done and you might as well finish this. But act cautiously, any attack on the father will be seen as hostile and will hurt you chances to see your grandson if you lose. If you win he will still remember the attacks and he will be able to make visits difficult and uncomfortable. Focus on the positive relationship you and your grandson have. This should be why you get visitation not because you dislike his father.

You need to clearly see and understand the situation you are in. You continually claim that the father is abusive, mentally ill, disabled, etc. None of that matters. He is the father. He has custody. CPS investigated him and declared him a fit parent/found the charges as unfounded. Stop bringing up abusive, mentally ill, disabled unless you have clear evidence that is current. CPS and the courts will see you bringing up past wrong doing and they will not look kindly on it. You have lost your case for guardianship and any further rehashing of negative history will hurt your case for visitation, not help it.

Making claims of Elderabuse, trying to rewrite laws, attacking the father: these do not help your case. These are the acts of someone who is acting in desperation, pain, and hurt. I think you need to think about the advice they give you on an airplane. In case of loss of cabin pressure, the stewards tell us to put our masks on first and then put masks on children/others. The point is that you need to take care of yourself first or you wont be able to take care of others. GrandNonna I believe that the hurt you feel is causing you to not see clearly. You are acting out of anger, fear, and desperation and your choices might actually be hurting your chances of having a relationship with your grandkids.

Please take care of yourself. Get a hobby, volunteer at a school to read to kindergarteners, see a counselor. I have seen posts about people who write a journal to the grandkids they cant see that they can give to the kids when they are older. Keep a box for each grandkids to give to them when they are older. Keep it positive and happy. Put in the birthday cards that you wanted to give them, letters that say how much you love them. Start a facebook page. At some point they will be old enough to have one and they may seek you out.

So true- Excellent suggestions-

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GN.....I'm going to suggest a different approach.

Surely, we've all heard the phrase about catching more flies with honey than with vinegar. My suggestion is to start sucking up big time. Send packages, send money, send gifts. Don't ask to see the children (especially not right away), don't tell them how much it isn't fair, don't tell them how sad your are. However, document EVERYTHING. After about 3-5 months, ask for a phone call. Open that dialogue first. Then maybe you'll get a visit, then more visits.  Definitely do not push. Apparently, the father and his family don't think highly of you, and my guess is because of your daughter. You have to become a separate institute. Issue an apology. Yes, even if you don't mean it and have nothing to apologize for. This is about having a relationship by any means necessary.  I went back and read your prior posts and I truly do feel for those kids. However, I agree with most posters that what you are planning 1. will not work and 2. will back fire.  You can't help if you can't see over the fence.  Just something to think about :)

Edited by Oranges
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On 7/7/2016 at 9:12 AM, ImpishMom said:

You're asking for more than non custodial parents get.

Grandparents are not equal to, and should not be equal to, parents, unless a parent has been deemed unfit by the courts, and a grandparent is awarded custody, vs a foster home placement.

You do not have the right to other ppl's medical files/history. Are you willing to offer access to your own? Are you willing to undergo psychological testing, if they believe you self medicate w/alcohol?

Unless you're willing to do what you're asking, you're being a hypocrite.

The way this reads, it's about coercing parents to do what a grandparent wants, or face punishment, by losing double time.

If the law you propose was passed where I live I would be making sure that neither my parents or inlaws had only the most superficial relationship with any children DH and I have so that they could never use the law to manipulate DH and I into allowing them to what would amount to be co parents with us and I have a fairly good relationship with my ILs and a great one with my parents. 

 

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A law like this would not stand up to judicial scrutiny.  

Here's the thing.  The reason why there is a harm standard is because "potential harm" is not quantifiable.  It is part of our justice system.  Courts are only supposed to step in to family situations where there is harm, or to mediate divorce.  

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