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RoseRed135

Dress Codes (again)

76 posts in this topic

57 minutes ago, ImpishMom said:

And frankly, I see a dress code in school as being a contributor to rape culture. It teaches young girls that their bodies are a distraction, and teaches boys that girls are responsible for how the boys feel, that the girls are to blame for their hormones.

 

In theory, absolutely. However, and i should have made myself a bit clearer above, these young women dress to impress, just who they are trying to impress remains a bit cloudy. Then we get back to the topic of what's appropriate for a school day. PJ pants & slippers don't belong in school any more than bare midriff spandex tube tops & pants or other club wear...we get both here. And its deliberate. There is no excuse for touching someone without permission, which needs to continue to be taught to our sons separate from anything else.

I don't wear my chore clothes to the store. What I'd wear to a business meeting is not what I'd wear to the ballpark. And on it goes....appropriateness. 

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I have to interject that I think Sue's dad is a pip with a quip: (paraphrasing) "If women's skirts get any higher and their necklines get any lower, they'll be wearing belts soon."

I roared when I read that. Hilarious! He was a funny guy.

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Beings the original clip/post was of a gal in a perfectly fine blouse, who was expelled by the principal wrongly, I think we're all scrambling a lot of different eggs (me included).

1)  I think we could agree that the principal was wrong.
2)  I think we could agree the school has a wonky dress code if that blouse was unacceptable.
3)  I think it's true to say that the school(s) should not be writing dress code based on distractions for hormonal teen males. Rather the school dress code should be about what is appropriate school attire for pupils in that location. Every school should have a dress code that disallows PJs, midriff or cleavage or bits exposed, pants below waistlines, in my opinion.
4)  I think we allow men and boys a pass by acting as if they are mindless twits who are tempted beyond their own level of decency and control by women's clothing or flirtatious behavior. Same for girls being tempted by boys looks, flirting and clothing. No victim blaming is acceptable.
5)  I think everybody (both sexes) has to learn no means no, BUT you better wait for yes means yes.
Everybody - high school kids, college kids, people on dates, couples, people who are married. Nobody has any right to touch anyone's body without permission (obviously infants, small kids, and people who need care in AL or hospital excluded).

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5 hours ago, Mame925 said:

In theory, absolutely. However, and i should have made myself a bit clearer above, these young women dress to impress, just who they are trying to impress remains a bit cloudy. Then we get back to the topic of what's appropriate for a school day. PJ pants & slippers don't belong in school any more than bare midriff spandex tube tops & pants or other club wear...we get both here. And its deliberate. There is no excuse for touching someone without permission, which needs to continue to be taught to our sons separate from anything else.

I don't wear my chore clothes to the store. What I'd wear to a business meeting is not what I'd wear to the ballpark. And on it goes....appropriateness. 

But again, it comes down to, unless you're in that person's head, assumptions are being made in regards to 'dress to impress'.

I dress appropriately...if you mean I keep all my bits decently covered, and geared to what I'm doing.

But, I'm weird too. I prefer wearing ankle length, flowy skirts, dresses in the warm weather, vs shorts. And, it has been remarked upon, positive/negative.

I had someone look at my family size, and ask if I was in one of those 'weird churches', and was I *allowed* to wear pants? I heard one woman mutter that I wasn't a local, and didn't I know how to dress, and I must think I'm better than everyone else. Someone else told me I was too young to be a hippie.

Nope. I just really, REALLY like my skirts. I feel pretty and feminine. I can run after Minions without a problem, bend and reach and such without flashing anyone, or being restricted in movement (athletic style sandals ftw!) I think I own a grand total of two pairs of shorts, and use them for if I'm mucking about in the yard. Should I have to change my personal style to 'fit in'? So others don't get the wrong message, or judge me based on their own prejudices?

Nah. To heck with them.

If someone's going to read something into my wearing ankle length skirts and dresses, then they're being petty, narrow minded, judgemental, possibly insecure, and not likely someone who's company I'd enjoy anyways.

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2 minutes ago, ImpishMom said:

If someone's going to read something into my wearing ankle length skirts and dresses, then they're being petty, narrow minded, judgemental, possibly insecure, and not likely someone who's company I'd enjoy anyways.

Isn't that petty judgement on their part? You are appropriate, that's all that counts. The rest is a matter of taste & style. 

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1 minute ago, Mame925 said:

Isn't that petty judgement on their part? You are appropriate, that's all that counts. The rest is a matter of taste & style. 

Ah, but in their view, I'm not being appropriate. I'm dressing fancy, in my skirts, when others are in shorts/jeans.

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1 minute ago, ImpishMom said:

Ah, but in their view, I'm not being appropriate. I'm dressing fancy, in my skirts, when others are in shorts/jeans.

Then they don't know the difference between appropriateness & personal style...and in my hippie days I wore jeans (still do, but the style has changed)

Edited by Mame925

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10 minutes ago, Mame925 said:

Then they don't know the difference between appropriateness & personal style...and in my hippie days I wore jeans (still do, but the style has changed)

My point is, 'appropriateness' is in the eye of the beholder to a fairly large degree.

Example: a bare middle is to you, inappropriate in a school setting. To the young woman, it's personal style.

A bare belly isn't a health/safety issue. It's not lewd or indecent in terms of the law. A belly button is not considered scandalous, or a 'private part'.

The young woman mentioned earlier had COLLARBONES showing. Not even a belly button.

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The only difference in all of this is that the school students are overwhelmingly minors so are subject to the dress code, stupid or not. You, as an adult are free to make your own choices. I know so many women who prefer skirts/dresses to pants/shorts that has nothing to do with religious concerns. You are new in the community and toward the introvert end of the spectrum...those of us who do our own thing often have to deal with the fallout of not being a joiner                      

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6 minutes ago, Mame925 said:

The only difference in all of this is that the school students are overwhelmingly minors so are subject to the dress code, stupid or not. You, as an adult are free to make your own choices. I know so many women who prefer skirts/dresses to pants/shorts that has nothing to do with religious concerns. You are new in the community and toward the introvert end of the spectrum...those of us who do our own thing often have to deal with the fallout of not being a joiner                      

Oh heck yes. Introvert with the complication of chronic pain disability, in a small town. I was bound to be wrong about something/most things.

The joy of being over 40, and dealing w/the disability? Seriously limits the energy I have to care what others think about me, LOL

My thing w/the dress codes are simple: They're imposing an opinion on young women that is inherently tied to how other ppl feel about their bodies. I think it sends a message to young women that is unacceptable: how others feel about your body is more important than how you feel about it.

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Speaking of "imposing an opinion":

https://www.aol.com/article/lifestyle/2017/06/13/woman-kicked-out-of-mall-over-finding-nemo-tank-top/22139810/

I thought this kind of attitude went out w/ the 1950s or maybe 1960s. I mean, I know there are still dress code's at work and yes, at many schools. And I realize there's such a thing as "public decency," etc. But since when is a tank top not ok while shopping at the mall?

Has this kind of thing been going on all along but just not as publicized before the advent of the Internet? Or does the Internet make it seem more prevalent than it is? Or is there just "something in the air" lately?

Or am I missing something?

ETA: Granted the mall apologized.

 

 

Edited by RoseRed135

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That is pretty far reaching.  Is there a dress code posted at the door so people will all know what is and isn't allowed?

I decided to google our closest mall for information and low and behold I did find A Code of Conduct notice on their website.

10. Failing to be fully clothed, or wearing apparel which is likely to provoke a disturbance or embroil other groups or the general public in open conflict.

If you fail or refuse to follow this Code of Conduct you will be asked to leave the property.
 
If you fail or refuse to leave the property, you will be arrested and prosecuted for Criminal Trespass.

****************

I wonder who gets to decide?  I'm pretty sure the mall stores sell tanks and shorts intending that they be worn in public.

Edited by SueSTx
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after several female reporters dressed in sleeveless clothes and open-toed shoes were turned away

Our local small town banks still have this same dress code for women.  They say it is to prevent spaghetti straps and flip flops which is NOT professional wear.

My personal opinion.  When a person accepts a job offer, they are also accepting their dress code.  IF it seems old fashioned, the way to go about a change is to follow the chain of command.

Edited by SueSTx
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There is an article trending now in the Golf Digest, LPGA alerts players that a stricter dress code is coming

Goetze-Ackerman went on to explain that it's an LPGA Tour player's "job" to notify her clothing sponsors of this new policy, and that "penalties for violating the dress code will be a $1,000 and it will double with each offense."

If the sporting world is limiting what styles can be worn for an outdoor athletic event, why not office wear for the professional.

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6 hours ago, SueSTx said:

after several female reporters dressed in sleeveless clothes and open-toed shoes were turned away

Our local small town banks still have this same dress code for women.  They say it is to prevent spaghetti straps and flip flops which is NOT professional wear.

Understood. But couldn't they just say, "no spaghetti straps" and "no flip flops?" My DGC's school has a rule against flip flops, but they don't forbid sandals or open-toed shoes, etc. b/c of it. If a school cam make that distinction effectively, no doubt, professional places can, as well, IMO.

My personal opinion.  When a person accepts a job offer, they are also accepting their dress code.  IF it seems old fashioned, the way to go about a change is to follow the chain of command.

Agreed. But these reporters don't work specifically for the House. So there may have been some confusion there.

 

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I understand the reason behind no "sleeveless",  It is much simpler to police than say 2" straps but nothing slimmer.

I worked a job for more than twenty years where no open toed shoes were allowed for safety reasons, and my feet survived.

So keep a lightweight summer shrug handy to slip on when going to the white house with some flats.

 

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1 hour ago, SueSTx said:

 

So keep a lightweight summer shrug handy to slip on when going to the white house with some flats.

 

Good idea, IMO! :)

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I think the problem w/dress codes is the inherent sexism involved.

It's not a health issue for women to wear open toed shoes, or have bare arms at the White House, the way it would be in food service, or health care.

So, the base reasoning seems to have originated in what men deem 'distracting' vs 'lady like'.

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I guess I've never assumed that the basis for a dress code was sexist.  If I was asked to wear a uniform, I would or I would hunt a different job.  If I am requested to dress within certain boundaries, I'd do the same.

In the 60's, I applied for an office job with a big cooperation.  They "gave" every woman employ an afternoon a week off to go to the beauty shop and get their hair "done".  If someone could "do" their hair nicely, that was fine also.  Now...IMHO, that was sexist.

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The last vestiges of "modest street dress" for women remains....sleeveless garments are considered immodest  by those standards or, more likely, too casual, not terribly unlike men wearing shorts in similar situations.  

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This was on a friend's FB feed. She's a teacher in Las Vegas, but seriously?

Quote

Getting ready to head Back to School? Fashion/Lifestyle Expert Ali Levine stopped by FOX5 this morning to give some exclusive fashion tips!

1) Always shop cheap and chic
2) Off the shoulder tops are super fashion forward for the ladies
3) Prints, textures and patches are easy DIY for shirts and jeans

Seriously? Again we're back to appropriateness to the event. It's middle school, not a cocktail party.

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On 5/24/2017 at 4:50 PM, ImpishMom said:

But nothing changes without someone deliberately challenging the status quo.

Dr. Martin Luther King. Rosa Parks. John Lewis. All examples of ppl who broke the law to stand for what they believed to be right, and arrested for it, but their acts changed the US.

If no young woman stands up to the hypocracy, to the misogyny of these dress codes, they're never going to change.

I'm a little late to the party, but this is spot on. FTR, if the girl who was showing her collarbones - gasp!! was my daughter, my attorney and I would have been meeting the cops and school officials right there, and I'd have alerted the news media. I'm sick and tired of there being much higher standards required of women. For example, it is COMPLETELY RIDICULOUS that men can go around shirtless, but women can't (well, here in DC you would not get arrested, fortunately). People will see a woman's breasts? ohhhhhhh scary...so stupid. Breasts are something all mammals have and in females they are for feeding babies. I'm flat chested, and the majority of men have way more breast tissue than I do (moobs - so attractive). But I have to have a top on at Rehoboth beach while the guys can be out there in speedos with their moobs and giant guts hanging out for all to see. 

It makes me so angry, and it's only gotten worse since the November elections, now that the misogynists feel validated and free to spew their toxic venom on women. 

Edited by Aravis
I misspell words when I'm ticked off.
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On 5/24/2017 at 5:02 AM, RoseRed135 said:

Meanwhile, people, saw this article and thought of this thread:

https://www.aol.com/article/news/2017/05/23/student-banned-from-graduation-for-violating-dress-code/22105498/

Thoughts?

I know it's frowned upon to bring up a topic this old and I apologize! The name may not be familiar - something to do with my old email address being unaccessible lol! But this is BlueEyedGirl! Missing in action for so long that most of you probably don't remember me!

I ducked in to see how things were going and had to laugh when I saw this post....because THIS ladies...is one I can actually speak to - from actual experience. THIS is my oldest daughter's high school. And I know the girl in question! 

To say the school had major issues with dress codes and the fair administration of violations would be an understatement. I went round and round with the principal over my oldest daughter several times. Each time was essentially because the violations were never deemed violations. So yes, the administration had some issues.

That being said, naturally there is a lot of information missing from this article and the many that followed. We made national news, and not in the way anyone wants to. Our graduation had to have extra security and tickets for the first time since the doors opened. To keep out press and other onlookers. Never the less, the graduation was so packed that I couldn't find my own mother to sit with her, and oldest DD's friend's FATHER did not get into the graduation because they hit the safety violation stage with standing room only and he did not get to see his own daughter graduate!

There were huge mistakes made on both sides. This was not this principal's first inconsistently applied violation. It was not the student's first brush with significant discipline. NO ONE was innocent in this one, I can promise you.  Things got out of control on both sides and they crossed the point of no return and suffered the consequences. It was because neither was willing in the least to admit ANY fault in what occurred (trust me - this was not just about a shirt showing her shoulders, that is what the press chose to focus on, but there were some pretty extenuating circumstances that led to such a huge over compensation for what was deemed "just a dress code violation".) BOTH of them paid a terrible price before it was all over with unfortunately. 

I went head to head with the principal over DD a couple of times for outfits that were not deemed violations in the written dress code and was appalled at first that this young woman was going to be punished so severely for a shirt. Then the realities came to light and even my own daughter, who despised the principal, began to feel sorry for her.  The school went through a myriad of bomb and other threats, causing lockdown after lockdown. Administration had to be police escorted anytime they were at school. Police were on site frequently. For this small town high school, I won't lie. It sucked! Unfortunately the press sided with the student very early on and most things that you could read were skewed solidly in her favor and left out some key points that didn't shed such a great light on her either. 

For what it's worth, I fully support a written dress code. Its there for a reason and there shouldn't be any question when something is a violation. Stick with it and you won't have any problems. But that's a rarity and more of those violations are decided by subjective opinion, where one teacher says yes and another says no. If you can't decide if something IS a violation, then it isn't. Preventing our daughters from getting their education because the adults in charge can't make up their minds is a waste!

 

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Good for you to drop back in BEG and sorry this whole mess fell on your DDs school last spring.

It is also good to hear about at least part of the rest of the story.

Hopefully some of these dress code issues will get better in the future.

 

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