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RoseRed135

A line in the sand - the "blame game"

49 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Reading both here and around the Internet, I've noticed a few lines in the sand between some ac/cil and some parents/PIL regarding difficult relations or estrangement between them. One of them regards the role, if any, of the DIL (or SIL) in the tensions/estrangement between the parent and their DS (or DD). Often, for example, posters here and elsewhere will caution an unhappy/estranged mom/MIL/GM not to  put much/any blame for such a problem on their DIL (or SIL, etc.), but rather to focus on repairing their relationship w/ DS (or DD).

However, on some boards, especially, estranged parent/EGP boards, I see the opposite. Often members there will advise a newcomer that a "3rd party" is very likely behind their issues w/ their AC (some of them say this is "always" the case.)  - and that this 3rd party is the CIL. (Some suggest blaming the CIL's mom/parents, as well.). In fact, they generally caution the new member not to put too much blame on their AC, but rather to take as a given that their CIL (or their CIL's mom) is causing the problem.

Why the sharp difference, do you think? And could it be that both views are a little bit right and a little bit wrong?

Edited by RoseRed135
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Because it's easier to believe a 3rd party, the 'stranger' is the one to blame, than the person you love, or even yourself. Same reason that ppl blame the other man/woman rather than their spouse for cheating, or are angrier w/them than their own spouse.

"He/she wouldn't be doing this if it wasn't for their spouse!" in some ways is true, but not in the way the person means it. Marriage = changes. It is SUPPOSED to result in a shift in loyalty. Plus, there are times when a new person on the scene causes realization that things that were 'normal' or 'just the way he/she/it is' really isn't normal or ok or acceptable.

"He/She ALWAYS_____!" Yep, but now they have a spouse who's needs/wants/traditions/family also comes into play and is of equal consideration.

"In this family, we ____" Yep, but now your AC is married, and their spouse doesn't have to do what you always have done.

People change. They're supposed to. But, before they're married, it's often easier to go along with what's always been, rather than not. Once they're married, it can happen that they now have someone on their side, supporting changes, different ideas, that are unwelcome and bucking traditions.

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Posted (edited)

16 hours ago, RoseRed135 said:

And could it be that both views are a little bit right and a little bit wrong?

Seems like the first view is correct and the second is totally false. And how could the CIL parents possibly be blamed?

I think it's wise to look at problems as if the issue originated with the our own kids, not our ACIL. Neither us or our kids are ever blameless in any scuffle we have. We typically have a pretty good idea what may be going on with our kids and absolutely no clue what their spouse is actually bringing to the issue.

But why do I think that? Because I've lived it. My own parents could read me fairly well and never understood my husband. And my PILs were the opposite - they were mostly attuned to my husband (other than his Priesthood decision) and thought I was from a different planet. And I am from a different planet. A planet with 6 kids per family, one where the parents were reasonably modern, where the mom had equal footing with the dad, where cooking and house cleaning were not the most important things ever. Naturally PILs found me nutty, but I think they mostly held their perfect Angel accountable for any dust-ups.

Yesterday we had a fuss with one of our Cherubs. Over the stupid notion that we should drop everything (including work) to do their bidding. I said this is not happening, Dad and I have work to do, money to earn, and that money is already spent. So the RO (ridiculous one) called my husband and asked him. My husband said the same thing - no, unless you can provide a logical reason other than "because I want" (sounded like a spoiled toddler anyway - in need of the time out chair). BTW, to any husbands reading, note to you, there is nothing sexier than a man who has his wife's back.

We could blame our CIL, in fact I do wonder what their part in this is. Do I think our CIL is involved? Naturally. In fact I sincerely hope so, they've been married a long time (leave and cleave). How will we all get back to normal and stop fussing? Thinking and compromising correctly, because nobody other than us and our entitled RO is the problem at hand.

Edited by JanelleK
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I dislike the word "blame" when dealing with these difficult relationships.  I think as long as a person is focused on blaming, it will prevent this person from taking an objective look at the troubled relationship, discerning what the issues were from a non blaming/non-judgmental standpoint, hopefully doing some work on self to perhaps repair the relationship or if that is not possible to know and do better going forward.  When you blame, you stay in victim mode.  When you stay in victim mode, you will never be in a position to take responsibility, rather you just stay stuck in a negative, judgmental place, which is not a good place to be.

 

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From my reading and comparing if the page and the estranged websites the difference is perspective and goals.

On this board, overall, I've noticed we try to find solutions to relationship problems by focusing on how we can change ourselves vs blame someone else. then we attempt to build relationships with the person we are most likely going to be the most successful with-our FOO. Hopefully that will result in better relationships with our FOO's family.

Estrangement boards seem to to focus on saying I'm right, your wrong, and then assign blame. Then the talk about ways to push your agenda on others-courts, secretly sending letters to a child's school, manipulating relationships to get your own way. If it doesn't work-more blame on someone else. Of course it is easier to blame a non family member than an AC. Blame is also easier that self-reflection and  most people want it to do things their way without change.

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My DIL's mother has been involved in some of the problems I have had with my DIL and more directly with problems my DS has had with his inlaws. The only point I can make is that there isn't anything I can do to "fix it". All I can do is behave appropriately and hope that over time things will get better. And most of the time for me it has gotten better but that doesn't mean situations will improve for everyone.

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Although I don't think assigning "blame" ever helps the situation, the reality is that I have had an impact on DH's relationship with his family - not that I have tried to bias him or turn him against them in any way.  My DH's coping mechanism is to tune things out and ignore.  So most of the time, he basically just didn't pay attention to his family's shenanigans.  The method worked for him, but not so much for me.  It was the typical situation where he just didn't "see" it - because he wasn't looking.

Once I started pointing it out and then predicting quite reliably how they would behave, his eyes opened quite a bit.

The funny thing is that although we both are now more aware, the best approach is very often just to ignore them - right back where he started!

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I don't believe in casting "blame" either, but it does seem that if there is an issue between parents and AC it 'must' be the patents fault because they are doing something wrong.

It is possible to be the easy one, not to cast expectations on your AC, give gifts and time when requested, never offer advice and never self invite and still be distanced from an AC and family without it being the older generations fault.  Sometimes it is just what it is and the younger family has too many demands on their time so it is easy to let the easiest relationship set on the back burner.

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18 minutes ago, Eve-SoCal said:

Although I don't think assigning "blame" ever helps the situation, the reality is that I have had an impact on DH's relationship with his family - not that I have tried to bias him or turn him against them in any way.  My DH's coping mechanism is to tune things out and ignore.  So most of the time, he basically just didn't pay attention to his family's shenanigans.  The method worked for him, but not so much for me.  It was the typical situation where he just didn't "see" it - because he wasn't looking.

Once I started pointing it out and then predicting quite reliably how they would behave, his eyes opened quite a bit.

The funny thing is that although we both are now more aware, the best approach is very often just to ignore them - right back where he started!

In a lot of this family drama,  I do agree with the mantra that "he who cares the least wins", not in the sense that you want to win a battle, but in the sense that you want to find peace.  Perhaps ignoring the family drama as your DH did and mine did as well was their way of caring the least.  They learned that there would be no constructive/healthy resolution to the family dysfunction, so they checked out to find their peace.

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16 minutes ago, SueSTx said:

I don't believe in casting "blame" either, but it does seem that if there is an issue between parents and AC it 'must' be the patents fault because they are doing something wrong.

 

I don't agree that it is the parent's "fault" in an issue between the AC and a parent.  I think both parties (excusing abuse) contribute to the troubled relationship.  I think once a person stops blaming, it will allow the person to discern objectively and perhaps see this. 

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Just now, SueSTx said:

I don't believe in casting "blame" either, but it does seem that if there is an issue between parents and AC it 'must' be the patents fault because they are doing something wrong.

It is possible to be the easy one, not to cast expectations on your AC, give gifts and time when requested, never offer advice and never self invite and still be distanced from an AC and family without it being the older generations fault.  Sometimes it is just what it is and the younger family has too many demands on their time so it is easy to let the easiest relationship set on the back burner.

I don't even remotely believe or agree that it's always the parents fault, any more than it's always the wife/husband's fault.

It has *everything* to do with the actual people involved, not the roles they hold.

Some ppl, you genuinely cannot have a healthy relationship with. Doesn't matter what role they hold, doesn't matter what you do, it's never going to be right, or enough.

Some ppl, it's never going to be a close relationship. Just personalities. Not that anyone is bad, or wrong, just oil and water. It happens, and cordial and polite is as far as it goes.

Some ppl, you have a decent relationship with. Warmer than cordial, friendly, someone who's company you can enjoy when you're around them, but not someone you'd seek out to spend time with.

Some ppl, you have a great relationship with. You genuinely like them as a person, seek out their company, enjoy spending time w/them.

Sometimes, there are particular issues involved. How those issues are navigated greatly impact the future of the relationship, but again, that comes to the personalities involved.

For example, if a parent is struggling w/the evolving relationship, from parent to peer. If they recognize the issue, and work on themselves, chances are, there's going to be little negative impact. Someone that doubles down and tries to demand an authority role in their AC's life is more than likely going to end up w/huge problems.

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, BSW said:

I don't agree that it is the parent's "fault" in an issue between the AC and a parent.

Most family problems, in my opinion, have plenty of faults to pass round. Some of the issues may be old stuff - how kids were raised etc. Most issues with our kids are a result of us spoiling them rotten. Pile on our AC entitled behavior and both generations can share in fusses.

ETA: obviously, abuse excepted (LilMommy's soon-2-B-XH and PILs don't get to excuse abuse, or deflect their behavior to others).

Edited by JanelleK
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2 hours ago, BSW said:

In a lot of this family drama,  I do agree with the mantra that "he who cares the least wins", not in the sense that you want to win a battle, but in the sense that you want to find peace.  Perhaps ignoring the family drama as your DH did and mine did as well was their way of caring the least.  They learned that there would be no constructive/healthy resolution to the family dysfunction, so they checked out to find their peace.

Because the ones in battle neglected to consider the war. 

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Given recent circumstances in my own life, I'm rarely surprised the lengths some folks will go to to avoid accepting any responsibility of their own.  Still I have to admit I got a chuckle when I read that a CIL's mom (?!) could be another potential scapegoat.

8 hours ago, RoseRed135 said:

However, on some boards, especially, estranged parent/EGP boards, I see the opposite. Often members there will advise a newcomer that a "3rd party" is very likely behind their issues w/ their AC (some of them say this is "always" the case.)  - and that this 3rd party is the CIL. (Some suggest blaming the CIL's mom/parents, as well.). In fact, they generally caution the new member not to put too much blame on their AC, but rather to take as a given that their CIL (or their CIL's mom) is causing the problem.

Not only is an AC a mindless twit, but so is the ACIL???  Now that's a stretch!!!  Good grief, already.

Personally, I don't put much weight in the opinions of folks that go that far.

Currently, I have an estranged soon-to-be ex-husband blaming me, not only for his estrangement from his parents, but also for the myriad of arrests he's faced since he had a restraining order against him.  I wonder if his parents would be interested to know that just prior to the restraining order, their son was blaming his relationship with them for his physical and emotional abuse of me and my children.  

I've becoming very wary of folks looking for someone else to blame.  More than likely, it's more a case of deflection.   

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TBF, sometimes, a parent does seem to pressure their AC to do this/that, And, in turn, some AC, apparently, lean on their spouse/SO to do what the parent wants. Not b/c AC is a "mindless twit," but b/c they want to get their parent off their back. We've heard about this kind of scenario here on these boards, if I recall correctly, and I know I had this problem w/ DH and MIL early in our marriage.

So I can understand where some people might think their CIL is being influenced by their mom (or dad), etc. What seems OTT to me is the assumption on the part of some people that this is always/usually the case. What also seems way OTT is the idea that they're CO from AC and family b/c of CIL's parents. Unless, unfortunately, CIL's FOO is extremely engulfing and abusive, that seems highly unlikely to me. As LM says it's quite a "stretch."  IMO, it often reflects effort to avoid looking at the problems in their own relationship w/ DS/DD and their own part in the estrangement.

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15 hours ago, Eve-SoCal said:

Although I don't think assigning "blame" ever helps the situation, the reality is that I have had an impact on DH's relationship with his family - not that I have tried to bias him or turn him against them in any way.  My DH's coping mechanism is to tune things out and ignore.  So most of the time, he basically just didn't pay attention to his family's shenanigans.  The method worked for him, but not so much for me.  It was the typical situation where he just didn't "see" it - because he wasn't looking.

Once I started pointing it out and then predicting quite reliably how they would behave, his eyes opened quite a bit.

The funny thing is that although we both are now more aware, the best approach is very often just to ignore them - right back where he started!

No doubt, one spouse/SO can, in fact, have an impact on how the other sees their FOO. But what happens as a result depends, IMO, on what goes on between the other spouse/SO and their FOO. For example, if, due to his new perceptions, DS asks his mom to stop doing this/that and she complies, then chances are, they'll be fine. But if she balks, refuses to respect his new wishes, etc., then that, of course, is likely to lead to trouble. While DIL's influence is in there, IMO, in the end, what happens to DS and MIL's relationship reflects their own dynamics.

Also, IMO, there's a difference, Eve, between ignoring someone's behavior b/c you (general) don't want to deal w/ it and ignoring it b/c you have looked the behavior quarely in its face and decided this is the best way to deal. From what you're saying, it seems that, initially, DH was doing the former, but now you both are often doing the latter.

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Like PPs, I think finding a specific person to blame doesn't help the situation, and often there's contributing factors on all sides. I think there's a level of just plain incompatibility between myself and my MIL, and the way my DH has handled/not handled it didn't help. 

I can see why parents blame the CIL, but it is sort of a distorted thinking. The AC is supposed to prioritize their spouse, and should be seeking out their thoughts and opinions on things that affect the couple or family. I can see why parents also might blame the CIL's parents, although as missm said, there's nothing that can be done about that. I think an enmeshed child, whether a son or daughter, is unhealthy all around. So if my child married someone who seemed to be enmeshed, I can understand the parents frustration, but again, there's nothing that can be done about it, and trying to do something about it probably would not go well. It's up to the spouse to speak up and say this level of enmeshment does not work for me. And sometimes the AC would rather give in to it than deal with it, and I think that's hard for some parents to accept. 

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On 6/6/2017 at 6:58 AM, RoseRed135 said:

 In fact, they generally caution the new member not to put too much blame on their AC, but rather to take as a given that their CIL (or their CIL's mom) is causing the problem.

Isn't this, in itself, dysfunctional? I mean that literally -- it doesn't function. 

Who's more likely to care about your feelings and problems -- someone who presumably loves you (your AC), or someone who almost certainly doesn't (CIL and CIL's family)? Who's easier to turn into an enemy? Who's more likely to say "I don't like this person, this relationship causes me nothing but stress" and cut you off? Doesn't it make more sense to take your relationship problems to someone who actually cares about the relationship?

It's also illogical: if your CIL really is mistreating you, then your AC is allowing that and you still have an AC problem. 

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6 hours ago, RoseRed135 said:

TBF, sometimes, a parent does seem to pressure their AC to do this/that, And, in turn, some AC, apparently, lean on their spouse/SO to do what the parent wants. Not b/c AC is a "mindless twit," but b/c they want to get their parent off their back. We've heard about this kind of scenario here on these boards, if I recall correctly, and I know I had this problem w/ DH and MIL early in our marriage.

I agree that parents of AC can sometimes pressure an AC or ACIL for things that they want.  I've experienced it myself.

My MIL would repeatedly ask my soon-2-B-XH about our plans for any given upcoming holiday.  He would repeatedly ask me.  When I'd ask him what he wanted to do, he seemed upset and would leave the room without giving me an answer, slamming doors behind him upon his exit.  Rather than deal with the tension of having my husband angry with me, I'd cave and start planning to host a dinner and have folks in my home for the weekend when I really didn't want to.  While I can blame my MIL and soon-2-B-XH for the pressure they put on me, I was the one who caved and allowed them to have what they wanted, so I was still contributing one-third to the problem.

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24 minutes ago, LilMommy said:

I agree that parents of AC can sometimes pressure an AC or ACIL for things that they want.  I've experienced it myself.

My MIL would repeatedly ask my soon-2-B-XH about our plans for any given upcoming holiday.  He would repeatedly ask me.  When I'd ask him what he wanted to do, he seemed upset and would leave the room without giving me an answer, slamming doors behind him upon his exit.  Rather than deal with the tension of having my husband angry with me, I'd cave and start planning to host a dinner and have folks in my home for the weekend when I really didn't want to.  While I can blame my MIL and soon-2-B-XH for the pressure they put on me, I was the one who caved and allowed them to have what they wanted, so I was still contributing one-third to the problem.

Precisely.  I'd say half not a third, because negotiations are only between the partners.

My introvert husband is perfectly able to say exactly what he wants without caving, and I think everyone else is the same. If one is not getting what they want they are not negotiating with their spouse (for whatever reason), not the ACIL/ACIL parents fault.

As you say, ^ you caved. While it's awful you were put in a difficult situation and S2BX took advantage of your kind attitude, you still gave in. Well done you for saying "enough" and leaving such a miserable mess. As my husband said to one of our kids this week, "It's fine to want what you want. I want 100 million dollars and a perfect golf swing, not happening. Live the best kindest way possible and let the chips fall however they fall, don't blame me and mom, bring your own workable-solution."

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9 hours ago, RoseRed135 said:

TBF, sometimes, a parent does seem to pressure their AC to do this/that, And, in turn, some AC, apparently, lean on their spouse/SO to do what the parent wants. Not b/c AC is a "mindless twit," but b/c they want to get their parent off their back. We've heard about this kind of scenario here on these boards, if I recall correctly, and I know I had this problem w/ DH and MIL early in our marriage.

 

I completely agree with this too.  DH was conditioned/raised to be the golden boy knight in shining armor rescuer to his family.  I also was a rescuer in my FOO but on a much lower level, more like a rescuer-lite.    DH was able to easily tap into my familiar rescuing skills, and I obliged, and together we accommodated and gave to what I felt was a very one-sided relationship with his parents that left me feeling used and miserable.  I had to take responsibility for my part in this and recognize what I did to contribute to these troubled relationships and from there make changes for the better which largely involved removing myself from this role and also getting very honest with DH about what I would or would not do going forward regarding his parents and extended family.   I am in a way better place now - hope DH will get there too but it remains a challenge for him due to my MIL's illness and just how conditioned he was to play this role in his FOO

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I am one who often suggests that a poster work on their relationship with their DS/DD rather than blaming a CIL. That is because the relationship I have with my AC is one with which I am more familiar, we have a history. I would explain it this way - If for example I felt that I would like to see my DS and his family more often than I do, I would call and speak with him and perhaps invite him and the family over. If the invites were continually turned down, I would call and ask DS if there was some issue keeping him from coming or are things really that hectic for them. I would feel comfortable asking DS these questions as we have a relationship that has flowed from our parent/child one when he was young to more of a peer one now that he is an adult. I could just blame DIL and say she won't let him come, that would be easier than doing the work of talking with DS and then working on any issue there may be.  I wonder if some parents find it hard to accept their AC as adults and thus try to keep the relationship on a parent/child level. In looking at my DH's relationship with his mother, it did not flow into a relationship between two adults because there were issues from DH's childhood that were never resolved. He then carried resentment into his adult life and the adult/adult relationship they should have had. I agree with the idea that it is easier for some to blame the CIL, who may or may not be at fault, than to really examine the relationship that a parent has with their AC. There are MIL's who think that their DS will go along with DIL to keep the peace, but are they really? Is it possible that there is some issue in the relationship between parent and AC that is causing a problem? I think people should be honest with themselves and see what they could be doing to cause a problem or how they could go about fixing their role in the issue. After all, you cannot control what others do, you can only control yourself and your reactions.  

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On 2017-06-06 at 3:58 AM, RoseRed135 said:

Why the sharp difference, do you think? And could it be that both views are a little bit right and a little bit wrong?

IMO, both views could be right simultaneously, in some situations. There are always family dynamics that existed long before the spouse entered the picture, and a new person family will sometimes change the dynamic and/or change the AC's way of response to it. The AC has been dancing this dance their whole life, and the spouse is sometimes a catalyst in the AC recognizing that there is a problem, or having the courage and/or motivation to change their role in the family drama. Or the spouse themselves may not be willing to go along with the status quo, and so will challenge it. The spouse is a convenient scapegoat, especially if everything was "fine" before. 

IMO, conflict is often multifaceted, and we all look through a different lense. Whether we are capable of seeing (or willing to see) the larger picture, or only a narrow perspective, our perception is our reality. So right and wrong are pretty hard to measure when you consider all points of view. 

I hope I'm not too OT here, but this reminds me of the story about the blind men and the elephant:

Here's link to a summary of the story:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant

I'm quoting the moral from the same link:

"The moral of the parable is that humans have a tendency to project their partial experiences as the whole truth, ignore other people's partial experiences, and one should consider that one may be partially right and may have partial information." 

I found the elephant analogy interesting. IMO, it's difficult to see things from the perspective of others, but possible, if there is a desire to do so. I think though, that sometimes the overriding desire is to be "right", have things one's own way, avoid taking responsibility or changing one's own behaviour, as others have said.

 

 

 

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On 6/7/2017 at 0:47 PM, lovinben said:

 There are MIL's who think that their DS will go along with DIL to keep the peace, but are they really? Is it possible that there is some issue in the relationship between parent and AC that is causing a problem? I think people should be honest with themselves and see what they could be doing to cause a problem or how they could go about fixing their role in the issue. After all, you cannot control what others do, you can only control yourself and your reactions.  

Simple concise truth.

Anonymous poster hash: ea945...f93

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On 06/06/2017 at 9:08 PM, ImpishMom said:

"He/she wouldn't be doing this if it wasn't for their spouse!" in some ways is true, but not in the way the person means it. Marriage = changes. It is SUPPOSED to result in a shift in loyalty. Plus, there are times when a new person on the scene causes realization that things that were 'normal' or 'just the way he/she/it is' really isn't normal or ok or acceptable.

"He/She ALWAYS_____!" Yep, but now they have a spouse who's needs/wants/traditions/family also comes into play and is of equal consideration.

"In this family, we ____" Yep, but now your AC is married, and their spouse doesn't have to do what you always have done.

People change. They're supposed to. But, before they're married, it's often easier to go along with what's always been, rather than not. Once they're married, it can happen that they now have someone on their side, supporting changes, different ideas, that are unwelcome and bucking traditions.

To me, my problem with parents/ILs that make these statements isn't that they don't understand that people change with marriage.

It's that the parent/in law is saying their adult child will think and feel the same as the parent. Or the way the parent/IL wants them to think and feel. 

I don't understand this thinking at all, especially about an adult child. Married or not. 

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