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RoseRed135

The multigenerational household -pluses and minuses

121 posts in this topic

Why did you settle for the basement apartment if you are not happy with it?  Why aren't you charging rent to your DS/DIL (aside from the tax issue)? 

I agree that communicating expectations prior to moving in was needed.   However, I also think that you have made decisions such as taking the basement apartment that are contributing to your disappointment.  Also, I don't understand why your DS/DIL get 2/3s of the home and are not paying rent.   Unspoken strings are attached to this, which DS/DIL are not fulfilling which is contributing to your disappointment. 

I also don't think your DS/DIL are excluding you or ignoring you as you have dinner together 2-3 times a week.  That may not be sufficient to you, but it may be for them.  I think instead of focusing on what you are not getting from your DS/DIL, appreciate the time you do have together, and focus your time/energy on other people and activities.  In the end, a feeling of gratitude and feeling validated in this world comes from within and cannot be provided by your DS/DIL, etc. 

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GrampsX9 please summarize your problem. Thank you.  

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Appreciate the time you do have together- Hummmm .. Ok, then let's all appreciate all those mother in laws who so often get complained about- (redacted) - In fact, let's all appreciate everyone who ever took advantage of anyone- Let's get on with it an get over all those old stories that so many hold so close to their hearts, and cling to, and repeat ad nauseam over and over again- Let's welcome any and all into the delivery rooms- Let's allow anyone and everyone to walk all over us and then thank them for doing so- In fact, let's all buy new curtains and carpeting and invite them to come play bingo with us after they do instead of calling the police or suggesting others should- Let's allow grandparents to have rights to visitation- Let's appreciate all life has to offer us- Or realize at some point that many simply don't expect to do what's suggested others should-

How's that sound to you, GrampsX9? Do you think it wise to appreciate the dinners offered AND say thank you for being sequestered to the basement in a house that legally belongs to you? 

Think it over .. the answer that arises just might surprise you ..

:)

Edited by RoseRed135
as per GP.com instructions

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On 9/16/2017 at 5:04 PM, GrampsX9 said:

Maybe we need to define "outside activities".  Every day I walk to a nearby coffee shop for lunch.  Does that count?

Absolutely. Did you move long distance? I'm wondering if there aren't friends, hobbies, interests you have that could help you feel less lonely, and take the pressure off the living situation.

On 9/16/2017 at 6:13 PM, GrampsX9 said:

I know, per arguments with DS, that they see it as a landlord-tenant relationship.  I think (thought) it's more than that.  Maybe I'm clinging too much.  After all, I get the occasional dinner with them.

On 9/16/2017 at 4:59 PM, GrampsX9 said:

  Before this, I lived near my DD, and I was welcome to pop into the LR at any time.  I assumed that I could do the same in my own house, and that assumption was reinforced by apparent affection.

. I was simply summarizing the difference in expectations. You thought you'd have access to their living space as you pleased, and be included as a member of the nuclear family, only in the basement to sleep/use office space. But, as you said, they saw it as a landlord tenant arrangement. I've repeatedly said that neither of you is wrong, just expectations have clashed, so how I'm 'assuming the worst' of you confuses me.

3x a week dinner would rank as more than 'the occasional dinner' for most folks. An 'occasional dinner' would be once a month, once every few months, imo.

 

Edited by RoseRed135
to reflect editing of quoted material

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3 hours ago, RoseRed135 said:

But if he can't/won't/doesn't accept it, then what?

Then he can't/won't/ or doesn't accept it- It's his house, he owns it-

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On 9/17/2017 at 10:37 PM, Komorebi said:

Appreciate the time you do have together- Hummmm .. Ok, then let's all appreciate all those mother in laws who so often get complained about- (redacted)- In fact, let's all appreciate everyone who ever took advantage of anyone- Let's get on with it an get over all those old stories that so many hold so close to their hearts, and cling to, and repeat ad nauseam over and over again- Let's welcome any and all into the delivery rooms- Let's allow anyone and everyone to walk all over us and then thank them for doing so- In fact, let's all buy new curtains and carpeting and invite them to come play bingo with us after they do instead of calling the police or suggesting others should- Let's allow grandparents to have rights to visitation- Let's appreciate all life has to offer us- Or realize at some point that many simply don't expect to do what's suggested others should-

How's that sound to you, GrampsX9? Do you think it wise to appreciate the dinners offered AND say thank you for being sequestered to the basement in a house that legally belongs to you? 

Think it over .. the answer that arises just might surprise you ..

:)

OK, this makes 0 sense here.

Gramps isn't being abused. His ds sees the living arrangement as a landlord/tenant situation. Gramps does not. That doesn't make ds an abuser, nor Gramps a victim. It means that this wasn't discussed, and now a massive issue has arisen.

Gramps isn't being abused by them not having an open door policy. Yes, he's hurt and unhappy that his expectations aren't being met. And I feel badly for him. But that doesn't mean his ds is being abusive by not having an open door policy.

Gramps is being invited to dinner 3x a week. His son has been down to visit in his apartment. It's not that Gramps is being manacled to a basement wall, and ignored. It's that Gramps isn't having what he *thought* he would, in terms of access, time, and involvement.

None of which is abusive. Painful for Gramps, yes. Abusive, no.

His ds has clearly said he views the arrangement as landlord/tenant. Not a multigenerational household arrangement. That doesn't make ds an abuser, anymore than using professional daycare and not a family member, despite the hurt feelings of said family member, abusive.

Edited by RoseRed135
to reflect editing of quoted post

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1 minute ago, Komorebi said:

Then he can't/won't/ or doesn't accept it- It's his house, he owns it-

I suspect that selling the house, or ending the living arrangement might be the best way to preserve the relationship.

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4 hours ago, GrampsX9 said:

I know, per arguments with DS, that they see it as a landlord-tenant relationship.

 
Gramps situation does seem much like any landlord multi-family tenant arrangement. Gramps owns the entire house, the tenants are upstairs, Gramps uses the vacant space, downstairs - same as my example. We certainly couldn't tell our tenants what to do outside of terms of lease: for the named space they pay $$$$/month, we provide all necessary maintenance to keep it in serviceable condition and give X hours notice of any inspection/intrusion of the property (per our state landlord-tenant rights-responsibility).

Beings DS considers the situation landlord-tenant, Gramps could run with that. What are the terms of the tenancy? What are the rights/responsibilities of each party? What are the applicable IRS rules that govern related family members, assumed rent, and Gramp's situation?
 
Edited by JanelleK
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3 minutes ago, JanelleK said:
 
Gramps situation does seem much like any landlord multi-family tenant arrangement. Gramps owns the entire house, the tenants are upstairs, Gramps uses the vacant space, downstairs - same as my example. We certainly couldn't tell our tenants what to do outside of terms of lease: for the named space they pay $$$$/month, we provide all necessary maintenance to keep it in serviceable condition and give X hours notice of any inspection/intrusion of the property (per our state landlord-tenant rights-responsibility).

Beings DS considers the situation landlord-tenant, Gramps could run with that. What are the terms of the tenancy? What are the rights/responsibilities of each party? What are the applicable IRS rules that govern related family members, assumed rent, and Gramp's situation?

Exactly. Gramps completely has the right to decide that the situation isn't working for him, and either renegotiate the terms or decide to end the living arrangement.

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1 minute ago, ImpishMom said:

OK, this makes 0 sense here.

Gramps isn't being abused. His ds sees the living arrangement as a landlord/tenant situation. Gramps does not. That doesn't make ds an abuser, nor Gramps a victim. It means that this wasn't discussed, and now a massive issue has arisen.

Gramps isn't being abused by them not having an open door policy. Yes, he's hurt and unhappy that his expectations aren't being met. And I feel badly for him. But that doesn't mean his ds is being abusive by not having an open door policy.

Gramps is being invited to dinner 3x a week. His son has been down to visit in his apartment. It's not that Gramps is being manacled to a basement wall, and ignored. It's that Gramps isn't having what he *thought* he would, in terms of access, time, and involvement.

None of which is abusive. Painful for Gramps, yes. Abusive, no.

His ds has clearly said he views the arrangement as landlord/tenant. Not a multigenerational household arrangement. That doesn't make ds an abuser, anymore than using professional daycare and not a family member, despite the hurt feelings of said family member, abusive.

Gramps owns this home, they don't- That makes complete sense to me- The living arrangement was determined not by the owner of the home, not by a tenant but a family member -- and not until after that family member moved his family in, not until after he and his family changed the way in which they behaved-

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1 minute ago, Komorebi said:

Gramps owns this home, they don't- That makes complete sense to me- The living arrangement was determined not by the owner of the home, not by a tenant but a family member -- and not until after that family member moved his family in, not until after he and his family changed the way in which they behaved-

The ds clearly said he sees it as a landlord/tenant situation. Obviously, there was no discussion as to *what* the arrangements were going to be, and assumptions made on both sides.

Still not seeing the abuse here. 

If they'd been invited to come live w/Gramps, and booted him to the basement after moving in, then I could see what you're getting at. But Gramps says that him having the basement and them having the rest was the plan from the get go. He expected that it would be open access, however.

The expectations and assumptions on both sides, is what's created the mess.

But nobody's being abused.

As for changing the way they behaved? Gramps said visits were 4x a week before. Now they're 3x. Yes, they're apparently shorter, but he's also admitted that that could be due to school starting, etc, and also says that he doesn't see this as deliberate or malicious by his ds.

So, I'm not seeing the gross change in behaviour that would indicate a bait and switch. A change in life schedule, yes. 

If they'd been seeing him 4x a week, then moved in and ceased to acknowledge he existed, then I could see your point. Dropping visits from 4x to 3x once summer ended and school started? Not seeing it.

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Just now, ImpishMom said:

The ds clearly said he sees it as a landlord/tenant situation. Obviously, there was no discussion as to *what* the arrangements were going to be, and assumptions made on both sides.

Still not seeing the abuse here. 

If they'd been invited to come live w/Gramps, and booted him to the basement after moving in, then I could see what you're getting at. But Gramps says that him having the basement and them having the rest was the plan from the get go. He expected that it would be open access, however.

The expectations and assumptions on both sides, is what's created the mess.

But nobody's being abused.

As for changing the way they behaved? Gramps said visits were 4x a week before. Now they're 3x. Yes, they're apparently shorter, but he's also admitted that that could be due to school starting, etc, and also says that he doesn't see this as deliberate or malicious by his ds.

So, I'm not seeing the gross change in behaviour that would indicate a bait and switch. A change in life schedule, yes. 

If they'd been seeing him 4x a week, then moved in and ceased to acknowledge he existed, then I could see your point. Dropping visits from 4x to 3x once summer ended and school started? Not seeing it.

Gramps is being told what to do in his own home and he emphasized a shift in the way in which they treated him from before the move and then after the move- Prior to the move he was treated like family and then after the move is being treated like "their" tenant- Just because they view the situation as landlord and tenant doesn't make it a landlord tenant situation- It makes it a situation where a son is taking advantage of his father and perhaps his daughter in law is doing the same-

They're family living under the same roof who have yet to iron their living arrangement/s- Won't be the first time it's happened, won't be the last-

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15 minutes ago, ImpishMom said:

The ds clearly said he sees it as a landlord/tenant situation. Obviously, there was no discussion as to *what* the arrangements were going to be, and assumptions made on both sides.

Still not seeing the abuse here. 

If they'd been invited to come live w/Gramps, and booted him to the basement after moving in, then I could see what you're getting at. But Gramps says that him having the basement and them having the rest was the plan from the get go. He expected that it would be open access, however.

The expectations and assumptions on both sides, is what's created the mess.

But nobody's being abused.

As for changing the way they behaved? Gramps said visits were 4x a week before. Now they're 3x. Yes, they're apparently shorter, but he's also admitted that that could be due to school starting, etc, and also says that he doesn't see this as deliberate or malicious by his ds.

So, I'm not seeing the gross change in behaviour that would indicate a bait and switch. A change in life schedule, yes. 

If they'd been seeing him 4x a week, then moved in and ceased to acknowledge he existed, then I could see your point. Dropping visits from 4x to 3x once summer ended and school started? Not seeing it.

What do you personally call it when someone comes into your home and tells you what you can and cannot do?

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7 minutes ago, Komorebi said:

What do you personally call it when someone comes into your home and tells you what you can and cannot do?

They agreed to separate living spaces. That's not the same thing at all.

They're saying what they want for *their* living space. Which Gramps *agreed* was their living space before they moved in together.

Again, they didn't move in and boot him to the basement. He agreed his apartment was the basement, and they had the rest of the house. They didn't switch the rules. There were unspoken expectations/assumptions on *both* Gramps and ds/DIL, which are now clashing. That doesn't make anyone abusive, or even a bait and switch, b/c nothing was discussed as to how living in the same house would actually work/look like.

If I rented the basement to my kid, then that's their space. I don't go into it. If I rented the main floor, same gig. B/c to *me*, agreeing that a certain space is someone else's means just that. Not mine, even if it is my name on the mortgage.

But that's *my* expectation/assumption. Which is why I say that the root of the problem here is nobody seemed to have discussed the boundaries/living arrangements prior to moving in.

Gramps isn't wrong to want to be a part of the nuclear family, to want to be a part of their daily lives. They're not wrong to view it as a landlord/tenant situation. Both views are equally valid. It's not abusive to view sharing property w/a family member as landlord/tenant.

The problem is the clash.

 

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19 minutes ago, Komorebi said:

Gramps is being told what to do in his own home and he emphasized a shift in the way in which they treated him from before the move and then after the move- Prior to the move he was treated like family and then after the move is being treated like "their" tenant- Just because they view the situation as landlord and tenant doesn't make it a landlord tenant situation- It makes it a situation where a son is taking advantage of his father and perhaps his daughter in law is doing the same-

They're family living under the same roof who have yet to iron their living arrangement/s- Won't be the first time it's happened, won't be the last-

And maybe it's just me, but I never had a landlord for dinner 3x a week. And as a tenant, never had a landlord invite me for such, either.

It seems to be ignored that the ds/DIL *are* indeed visiting w/Gramps. DS has been to Gramp's area 3x. Gramps has been for dinner 3x a week. Gramps isn't welcome to pop in whenever he chooses, and it isn't the amount of interaction he expected, but they ARE visiting w/him.

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1 hour ago, Komorebi said:

Gramps is being told what to do in his own home and he emphasized a shift in the way in which they treated him from before the move and then after the move- Prior to the move he was treated like family and then after the move is being treated like "their" tenant- Just because they view the situation as landlord and tenant doesn't make it a landlord tenant situation- It makes it a situation where a son is taking advantage of his father and perhaps his daughter in law is doing the same-

They're family living under the same roof who have yet to iron their living arrangement/s- Won't be the first time it's happened, won't be the last-

Hmmm... seems more like they're treating him as a landlord who lives in the same building w/ his tenants (them). My MGM lived in a similar situation when I was growing up. In her case, it was a 2-family house where she lived on the upper floor and her landlady on the lower one. The house, as a whole, belonged to the landlady, but, to my knowledge, she never came upstairs except to collect the rent. And I never heard of her expecting round the clock access to MGM's apt. just b/c it was in her (the landlady's) house.

Just because they view the situation as landlord and tenant doesn't make it a landlord tenant situation-

I agree. And just b/c Gramps thought it was going to be one unified home w/ his apt really just serving as his bedroom didn't mean that was going to work out either. It seems to me a conversation was missing - the one where, before the house was bought, Gramps, DS and DIL would have discussed their differing expectations. IMO, as Imp says, "The problem is the clash."

@GrampsX9 - About making friends - I'm sure whatever methods have worked for you in the past will work now. No doubt, it will take time.

Edited by RoseRed135

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1 hour ago, ImpishMom said:

I suspect that selling the house, or ending the living arrangement might be the best way to preserve the relationship.

If only it were that simple. No doubt, Gramps has the right to do this ^^^^. But it might cause some issues (drama) of its own

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We have had several reports of a 5b guideline violation.  I am locking this thread while the moderators have a chance to decide how this situation needs to be handled.

 

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  Two posts in this thread have been hidden. They may/may not be restored in their entirety.

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The posts have been restored w/ some editing, and the thread has now been reopened.

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Unfortunately, further issues have caused more posts to be hidden. Locking down this thread again while we mods review...

ETA: The majority of posts in this thread have been restored, some w/ edits, others in full. It has been decided, however, that the thread will remain locked.

Edited by RoseRed135

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