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RoseRed135

Confederate Statues - Should they be removed or... ?

60 posts in this topic

4 hours ago, DaisyJane said:

 

Using Wikipedia may not be the most accurate or reliable source of information. According to their own website it is a collaborative, written by anonymous volunteers, it may contain misinformation, invalid information and errors. ( As almost any site on the net can be)

As for flags of the Confederacy hanging in every home in the South ????   Do you think those 28.17% have that flag hanging or any other symbol that represents the ugly history that it stands for.

Because we are lucky enough to live in the US we are allowed to fly almost any flag we want. I have a plaque in my home which shows an American flag which reads home of the free because of the brave.

I have provided a map, it's a visual of our current condition due to past conditions that as I've noted folks have taken a liking to want to forget- But there it is, in all of its segregated glory-

Since the 70's I have lived in many different places in the US, I have traveled about this country by car, rail, plane, motorcycle, semi and hitch hiked- I currently live in the Midwest- The map is accurate "enough"- I myself am not one to trust every statistic I read, even the US Census, not to the T- The Census provides a fair representation of what our segregated United States looks like, as do other sources- Anyone with a computer or library near by and is inclined to do even a little research can do so-  But as I mentioned previously, people don't like to admit things like this about the US and would prefer just to assume such things are simply not true-  

Edited by Komorebi

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The racial makeup of the nearly 2Mil in Mame's County was: 

  1. 649,122 (43.0%) White,
  2. 190,451 (12.6%) African American,
  3. 9,799 (0.6%) Native American,
  4. 394,560 (26.1%) Asian (9.7% Chinese, 5.5% Filipino, 4.8% Indian, 2.0% Vietnamese, 1.2% Korean, 0.8% Japanese, 2.2% Other Asian),
  5. 12,802 (0.8%) Pacific Islander,
  6. 162,540 (10.8%) from other races, and
  7. 90,997 (6.0%) from two or more races. 
  8. 339,889 persons (22.5%): Hispanic or Latino of any race were 16.4% Mexican, 0.8% Puerto Rican, 0.2% Cuban, 5.1% Other Hispanic.[24]

This is about average for major cities in California. Very diverse.

The demographic at theschool I'm currently working at in the next county:

980
 
1
 
 
 
  3 4
 
10
 
14
 
0
 
0
 
18
 
0
 
0
 
2
 
0
 
4
 
11
 
630
 
213
 
22  36 / 

 

The info in italics is the important stuff....

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7 hours ago, Komorebi said:

Here's the demographics from the town I live in: 97.6% White, 0.9% African American

These posts raise some other questions, IMO. And actually beg another topic:

 

 

6 hours ago, Mame925 said:

The racial makeup of the nearly 2Mil in Mame's County was: 

  1. 649,122 (43.0%) White,
  2. 190,451 (12.6%) African American,
  3. 9,799 (0.6%) Native American,
  4. 394,560 (26.1%) Asian (9.7% Chinese, 5.5% Filipino, 4.8% Indian, 2.0% Vietnamese, 1.2% Korean, 0.8% Japanese, 2.2% Other Asian),
  5. 12,802 (0.8%) Pacific Islander,
  6. 162,540 (10.8%) from other races, and
  7. 90,997 (6.0%) from two or more races. 
  8. 339,889 persons (22.5%): Hispanic or Latino of any race were 16.4% Mexican, 0.8% Puerto Rican, 0.2% Cuban, 5.1% Other Hispanic.[24]

This is about average for major cities in California. Very diverse.

The demographic at theschool I'm currently working at in the next county:

980
 
1
 
 
 
  3 4
 
10
 
14
 
0
 
0
 
18
 
0
 
0
 
2
 
0
 
4
 
11
 
630
 
213
 
22  36 / 

 

The info in italics is the important stuff....

 

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97.6% White

0.9% African American

0.4% Asian

1.0% from two or more races

Hispanic or Latino  2.4%

______________________________________________

Closest city:

53.3% African American

37.3% White

0.3% Native American

1.8% Asian

4.4% from other races

2.8% from two or more races

Hispanic or Latino 10.0%

______________________________________________

 

The practice of removing statues in the middle of the night, without announcement, might save lives- And if the intention is to collect them and place them at another location, doing so might prevent vandalism- Many of the statues were erected in remembrance of the dead, like any other marker provided for someone who died, and not to glorify them- Such as those dedicated to the prisoners of that war- There are statues of Confederate soldiers up north, and Union soldiers down south- Many of which are almost identical, with a few minor features changed to make one appear as a Union soldier and one as a Confederate- It's how they were manufactured- There's much to consider, including each persons view regarding the removal of statues-

 

Edited by Komorebi

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I read somewhere this afternoon that the sports announcer named "Robert Lee" agreed to the game change because he was afraid for himself because of his name.  No American should be afraid of violence because of their name.

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34 minutes ago, SueSTx said:

I read somewhere this afternoon that the sports announcer named "Robert Lee" agreed to the game change because he was afraid for himself because of his name. Wow. No American should be afraid of violence because of their name. Agreed.

But wait... how did we get here? The white supremacists who came to Charlottesville w/ hate-filled signs, etc. were championing the statue of General Lee. So was the white supremacist who mowed down that poor young woman w/ his car...

And yet now, .. ESPN and Robert Lee, the sportscaster, are afraid for Lee's safety b/c of his name? B/c, I suppose, of those who are against the statue? How did we go so quickly from one to the other?

FWIW, here a link to the story:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/23/business/media/robert-lee-university-virginia-charlottesville.html?mcubz=1

Edited by RoseRed135
to add link

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On 8/22/2017 at 8:27 AM, muusetta said:

We can't change our history; we also shouldn't glorify its ugliness. That being said, one has to wonder where we stop in negating past history.  Do we tear apart Gettysburg?  Do we tear down the Jefferson Memorial, since he was a slave owner?  Shall we remove Washington from the $1.00 bill?  I could continue, but I'm sure you get my point. The Civil War was not just about slavery.  There were other political, marketplace and federal government issues. It was an ugly battle on both sides.  History in and of itself isn't biased; how it is portrayed is what is meaningful.  What kind of history are we creating for our grandchildren by resorting (yet again) to violence?

It was an ugly battle on both sides, but one side was RIGHT and it WON. Erecting statues to losing generals and "sides" who fought to keep people enslaved is egregious.

The Civil War was all about slavery. Other "political, marketplace and federal government issues" were all tied to slavery, either directly or indirectly.

As for the slave-owning Founding Fathers, there's a world of difference between slave owners who created this country when there was an absence of abolitionist thought (and, I could add, no whiff of giving women the vote or allowing them to own land), vs. slave owners who sought to secede from the nation so they could continue to keep men, women and children in bondage during a time when Americans and immigrant Americans (and other European nations) were already enlightened as to the horrors and degradations of slavery.

One group of leaders created the U.S., the other group sought to rip it apart for nefarious purposes.

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Choosing to excuse Jefferson's slave-owning practices, in this day and age, is a glaring example of the continuance of privilege and inequality- 

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2 hours ago, Komorebi said:

Choosing to excuse Jefferson's slave-owning practices, in this day and age, is a glaring example of the continuance of privilege and inequality- 

I can't judge 'men of their times' by modern standards...to do so destroys credibility for their accomplishments during their lifetime.  

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Jefferson recognized* that slavery was a violation of human rights during his lifetime, which is evidence that he judged himself during his lifetime- What it appears to me that he didn't do was find excuses for being a slave-owner but instead found hope that future generations would accomplish what he himself openly recognized but didn't set out to do- So finding excuses for him today sets us back to a time when slavery wasn't recognized as a violation of human rights-

 

*And that recognition is among his accomplishments-

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5 hours ago, Komorebi said:

Choosing to excuse Jefferson's slave-owning practices, in this day and age, is a glaring example of the continuance of privilege and inequality- 

 

2 minutes ago, Komorebi said:

Jefferson recognized* that slavery was a violation of human rights during his lifetime, which is evidence that he judged himself during his lifetime- What it appears to me that he didn't do was find excuses for being a slave-owner but instead found hope that future generations would accomplish what he himself openly recognized but didn't set out to do- So finding excuses for him today sets us back to a time when slavery wasn't recognized as a violation of human rights-

 

*And that recognition is among his accomplishments-

Yet you judge him. Pick a side and own it.

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2 minutes ago, Mame925 said:

 

Yet you judge him. Pick a side and own it.

Jefferson .. :) .. expressed that slavery was a violation of human rights, but remained a slave owner- What side did Jefferson choose?

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Jefferson's history is well documented. He was a man of his time. I can have an opinion. I cannot speak for him.

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And my opinion is that he spoke for himself when he expressed that slavery was a violation of human rights -- back then, in his time- Of course, nobody has to think so today, if they choose not to-

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FWIW- I read that Jefferson had financial difficulties (he died in debt- obviously was horrible managing his money) and couldn't afford to free his slaves.

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He had other difficulties, too- And while he isn't celebrated for those things they were every bit as much a part of who he was as his achievements, therefore, part of the discussion- He's celebrated and criticized fairly, no need to choose which one prefers to do -- when one is free to do both-

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6 minutes ago, Komorebi said:

He had other difficulties, too- And while he isn't celebrated for those things they were every bit as much a part of who he was as his achievements, therefore, part of the discussion- He's celebrated and criticized fairly, no need to choose which one prefers to do -- when one is free to do both-

Absolutely...as long as you look at his 'big picture' to celebrate/criticize fairly.

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38 minutes ago, Mame925 said:

Absolutely...as long as you look at his 'big picture' to celebrate/criticize fairly.

Me? :) 

Edited by Komorebi

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32 minutes ago, Komorebi said:

Me? :) 

If the shoe fits....otherwise, it's editorial

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Both jury and judge- Pick one! :)

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That's ridiculous. Decide for yourself.

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So, people, should statues of, say, Lee and Jefferson be looked upon/handled the same way?

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A lot more common sense and a little more emotion needs to be used in all these situations.  I just hope nothing gets destroyed is replaceable.

In the 30's and 40's an before when a lot of these statues were displayed, things looked different than now to many.  History needs preserved (in museums for example) for the future generations to believe things really happened as reported.

Benjamin Franklin — ‘Believe none of what you hear, and only half of what you see.’

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