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RoseRed135

Passive Agression

129 posts in this topic

8 hours ago, SueSTx said:

My MGM always told us if we couldn't say something nice about/to someone not to say anything at all.  This is a good way to steer away from PA (even if your tongue gets sore).

I pretty much stuck to this with my own MIL until she pushed and pushed and I had my back against a wall, then I'd say just enough to get her to back off...usually a NO, I am not going to do that was sufficient.  No JADEing.

So it's not just a choice between P/A and direct communication - but rather P/A, direct communication and silence...

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2 hours ago, PattyGram said:

Seriously, joint attendance and giving notice of achievements? Is it the Army?  

Right? I chose to get married, not become an appendage.

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This thread has been interesting to read.

My mom admits to being passive and she has told me ODB is also passive, which is no secret. The funny thing is she does not see it at all about DSis, who is the most passive aggessive of everyone and denies it until I give her very specific examples then she just sighs and changes the subject.

Is passive the same as PA here?

 

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2 hours ago, Cupcake55 said:

 

Is passive the same as PA here?

 

Are you asking if the definition of "PA" is usually "passive" on these boards? 

If so, then the answer is that PA (or"P/A" ) generally means "passive aggressive" or "passive aggression" here. (Sometimes, however, PA used to mean "personal attack" - depends on context.)

Or are you asking if "passive" and "passive aggressive" are used interchangeably here, overall?

If so, then, no, I don't think they are. To me, "passive" describes a person who accepts mistreatment and never stands up for themselves - a "doormat," as some would say. PA describes someone who uses indirect tactics (sometimes deceptively) to try to get their way or make a point. But others (including yourself) might see this differently.

Edited by RoseRed135

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On 9/9/2017 at 1:33 PM, RoseRed135 said:

IMO, you're handling MIL's behavior very well. You didn't ask, I know, but if she ever repeats any of her concerns, I hope you realize you can then just say something like, "We've been over that" and bean dip (change the subject).

This has been something I'm working on. I'm not very confrontational (I'm a passive person, which I'm working on) so even saying this takes a lot of courage. Right now because my mil has become more aggressive in her opinions and she bothers me too much (death by 1000 paper cuts) I'm taking a break. 

I think another poster already mentioned something about mil/dil conflict and marriage problems. Well my marriage is going through problems and this persistent control and p/a issue with my mil has made tensions worse (my husband hates  conflict, even though he says he knows his mom is to blame but this is who she is). So to strengthen our marriage and focus just on us, my husband suggested I step back from having a relationship with his mom. Just see her on holidays or special events. That way I'm not putting in this huge amount of effort and not getting anything back. So maybe with p/a people you just have to distance yourselves to save the relationship. 

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That article was a freakish beehive of idiot stereotypes. Someone clearly beamed it in from the 1950s. Lesson 1: your son is not a spineless idiot who knows nothing about his own children. Ask him about school, events, performances, etc. One does not need 2 X chromosomes to be able to impart information about your grandchildren. Lesson 2: your DIL does not exist to see to your comfort and convenience. If you want to see your son's family coordinate with him and if his wife isn't there, understand that she has a life. Do you think her mother has a fit if your son cannot be present for a visit? Lesson 3: it is 2017. If your son is of child-rearing age, he grew up after the 1960s and is responsible for his own FOO. You cannot possibly be old enough to have had it be SOP for your DIL to be in charge of all domestic affairs. Not even if she's a Duggar. Lesson 5: I am older than you are, grandma. If you think women being Becky Home-ecky was the norm when your DIL was raised, you are kidding yourself. Stop it. 

Edited by Aravis
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On 9/9/2017 at 1:35 PM, RoseRed135 said:

So it's not just a choice between P/A and direct communication - but rather P/A, direct communication and silence...

Silence is golden, it works in almost all fussy situations, one just shuts up - works well.

5 hours ago, Aravis said:

That article was a freakish beehive of idiot stereotypes. Someone clearly beamed it in from the 1950s. Lesson 1: your son is not a spineless idiot who knows nothing about his own children. Ask him about school, events, performances, etc. One does not need 2 X chromosomes to be able to impart information about your grandchildren. Lesson 2: your DIL does not exist to see to your comfort and convenience. If you want to see your son's family coordinate with him and if his wife isn't there, understand that she has a life. Do you think her mother has a fit if your son cannot be present for a visit? Lesson 3: it is 2017. If your son is of child-rearing age, he grew up after the 1960s and is responsible for his own FOO. You cannot possibly be old enough to have had it be SOP for your DIL to be in charge of all domestic affairs. Not even if she's a Duggar. Lesson 5: I am older than you are, grandma. If you think women being Becky Home-ecky was the norm when your DIL was raised, you are kidding yourself. Stop it. 

I am amazed at articles from GP.com - they seem to be written for people born before Mom, MIL, my sisters and me. Mom would be over 100 - Dad was the one who kept up with his FOO.
 
Mom had 6 kids, she worked from home for Dad/ their business, she was a sahm, and she had a busy life with her own parents and siblings (she was one of 12). She didn't write Dad's TY notes or do his correspondence, she didn't make calls to her MIL or Dad's siblings (he was one of 10). She did the banking, estimating, bids - things women of her time were not assumed to know anything about. She was busy in their business, just as women are busy at work today. She had no patience with "Becky Home-ecky" (nor do I). I'm having my 70th Birthday soon - don't know anyone who lives the strange lives in these weird articles.
 
 
Edited by JanelleK
clarity
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1 hour ago, Aravis said:

If you want to see your son's family coordinate with him and if his wife isn't there, understand that she has a life. Do you think her mother has a fit if your son cannot be present for a visit?

Actually, DM used to get upset w/ DF when he didn't want to join in her weekly visits w/ her FOO (this was on a Sunday afternoon, so it's not as if he were at work). These were usually at our house, so they compromised enough that he could spend most of the time doing what he wanted (spending time in his workshop), but she expected him to give about an hour to her FOO (and so he did though, reluctantly, I'm afraid).

Why? DM was worried that if he didn't, her FOO would feel snubbed by him. IDK if they ever said anything to make her think this or if it was just her own idea. My point is simply that some people, such as my DM, do expect men to be there when their ILs are visiting. (Or maybe it was just DM... IDK...)

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On Saturday, September 09, 2017 at 3:18 PM, ImpishMom said:

Right? I chose to get married, not become an appendage.

I know. Or a Duggar, smh.      

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2 hours ago, PattyGram said:

I know. Or a Duggar, smh.      

Ha. I get accused of 'wanting to be the Duggars' b/c of our family size, and my preferences for long skirts/dresses in warmer weather. Nope, I just love my family, and long skirts/dresses make me feel feminine and a cpl of my dresses make me feel like a freaking Princess.

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22 hours ago, RoseRed135 said:

Are you asking if the definition of "PA" is usually "passive" on these boards? 

If so, then the answer is that PA (or"P/A" ) generally means "passive aggressive" or "passive aggression" here. (Sometimes, however, PA used to mean "personal attack" - depends on context.)

This one...sorry I was not clear. Thank you.----> Or are you asking if "passive" and "passive aggressive" are used interchangeably here, overall?

If so, then, no, I don't think they are. To me, "passive" describes a person who accepts mistreatment and never stands up for themselves - a "doormat," as some would say. PA describes someone who uses indirect tactics (sometimes deceptively) to try to get their way or make a point. But others (including yourself) might see this differently.

 

Edited by Cupcake55
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I definitely feel like my mil is p/a.  My dh and I have a yours mine approach as we feel it works best for our different families.  Problem is my dh does not communicate with his parents as often as he could and they make plenty of woe is me comments about not being more involved.  When we try to include them, it never seems to work unless it's their idea on their terms.  Feels like a p/a way to control our interactions. When they do visit, I like to give them time with just dh and gk so I will do laundry or run an errand.  Gives me a break from the behavior and allows them some good time together! 

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2 hours ago, AEJ0818 said:

I definitely feel like my mil is p/a.  My dh and I have a yours mine approach as we feel it works best for our different families.  Problem is my dh does not communicate with his parents as often as he could and they make plenty of woe is me comments about not being more involved.  When we try to include them, it never seems to work unless it's their idea on their terms.  Feels like a p/a way to control our interactions. When they do visit, I like to give them time with just dh and gk so I will do laundry or run an errand.  Gives me a break from the behavior and allows them some good time together! 

Welcome, AEJ0818! Glad you came in to talk w/ us!

Having read both your posts, I can see that your ILs are difficult to deal w/. The "woe is me comments" are definitely P/A. And, no doubt, it's possible that the issues over visits are, too. IMO, however, you're handling the situation the best way possible. (I'm sorry DH doesn't communicate w/ them more often, but maybe that's b/c of how they act, etc.)

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I guess I am lucky in that my MIL's PA behavior isn't along the lines of snide comments which are then dismissed as "jokes".  She is just the queen of the hint followed by the heavy sigh and pout when she doesn't get what she wants.  It is a VERY rare thing for her to directly ask for anything.

Meanwhile I am very direct - I don't have time to try to divine exactly what you want - just freakin tell me already!  Good news is that I have learned just how easy it is to ignore hints.  Even easier to ignore the childish pouting!

 

Edited by Eve-SoCal
Pet hit send too soon!!
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2 hours ago, Eve-SoCal said:

I guess I am lucky in that my MIL's PA behavior isn't along the lines of snide comments which are then dismissed as "jokes".  She is just the queen of the hint followed by the heavy sigh and pout when she doesn't get what she wants.  It is a VERY rare thing for her to directly ask for anything.

Meanwhile I am very direct - I don't have time to try to divine exactly what you want - just freakin tell me already!  Good news is that I have learned just how easy it is to ignore hints.  Even easier to ignore the childish pouting!

 

Question- What exactly should a MIL do?  Depending on the DIL- it's darned if you do and darned if you don't.  You can be blunt and come out and say what you want- ie self invite and that's bad or you can hint and that's bad.  DILs can also be known to "hint" and if the MIL just doesn't get the "hint" is it her fault or the fault of the DIL who just won't say what it is she wants.

 Example- I ran into a situation a couple months ago.  My son lives several hours drive away.  We don't see him for months at a time.  So after years of rarely seeing him, I decided that maybe I should take the initiative. So,  I called him close to his birthday, asked if we could take him out to lunch, drove three hours in a snow storm, ate lunch with him and drove home. We were there for about 3 hours.  His future wife works night shift and was sleeping.  We sent her home a plate.  Never even interacted with her.

So that went well and 3 months later they were moving.  We hadn't seen them since the birthday lunch 3 months before. They moved several times in the past and we always helped them.  So, I offered to help .  pack up their stuff for the move.  She didn't say no.  She just said she was working the night before I was going to come.  With that in mind I said OK, what time do you get up, found out it was about 2, asked what if I come 5PM, bring dinner, stay in a hotel, help pack up the truck, and leave right after the truck leaves.  She said OK.  If her working night shift  was a hint I didn't get it.   I've worked nights and this would be OK w me.    A few days before I got a calll from my son saying he is going to be out of town and not to come- "You don't want to be here if I'm not here do you?"  I said I wasn't coming to visit but to help but if you don't need my help I won't come. Her parents were helping on the other end of the move.   I get a text message from her parents and a phone call from my son after the move about what a wonderful weekend they had with her parents on the other end of the move and how nice their new place is.  That stung.

I said (Is this a hint or not), I'd love to see your house WHEN YOU INVITE ME.  He says- you aren't going to come when I'm not there are you?  So now I'm a PIA. 

If I come when he invites me, why would I come there when he isn't there unless he invites me when he isn't there.

 

Edited by skipped

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1 hour ago, skipped said:

 

I said (Is this a hint or not), I'd love to see your house WHEN YOU INVITE ME.  He says- you aren't going to come when I'm not there are you?  So now I'm a PIA. 

If I come when he invites me, why would I come there when he isn't there unless he invites me when he isn't there.

 

The bolded is what I was thinking. ;) What was your reply to this silly comment, if you don't mind telling us?

 

 

Edited by RoseRed135

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1 hour ago, skipped said:

A MIL can't

Question- What exactly should a MIL do?  Depending on the DIL- it's darned if you do and darned if you don't.  You can be blunt and come out and say what you want- ie self invite and that's bad or you can hint and that's bad. True, but MIL could also do some inviting and see what happens (as you did for DS below).  Or she could say,, "I'd like us to see each other more often. Can we work something out?" That's not self-inviting, that's just expressing a wish.  No doubt, some AC or CIL would object to those actions, too, but hopefully, not too many. DILs can also be known to "hint" and if the MIL just doesn't get the "hint" is it her fault or the fault of the DIL who just won't say what it is she wants. IMO, it can be a problem for either side of the ledger.

 Example- I ran into a situation a couple months ago.  My son lives several hours drive away.  We don't see him for months at a time.  So after years of rarely seeing him, I decided that maybe I should take the initiative. So,  I called him close to his birthday, asked if we could take him out to lunch, drove three hours in a snow storm, ate lunch with him and drove home. We were there for about 3 hours.  His future wife works night shift and was sleeping.  We sent her home a plate.  Never even interacted with her.

So that went well and 3 months later they were moving.  We hadn't seen them since. They moved several times in the past and we always helped them.  So, I offered to help .  pack up their stuff for the move.  She didn't say no.  She just said she was working the night before I was going to come.  With that in mind I said OK, what time do you get up, what if I come 5PM, bring dinner, stay in a hotel, help pack up the truck, and leave right after the truck leaves.  She said OK.  If her working night shift  was a hint I didn't get it. Maybe it was a hint, but if so, subtle enough that, IMO, she really shouldn't have expected you to "get it."   I've worked nights and this would be OK w me.     shortly before l from my son saying he is going to be out of town and not to come- "You don't want to be here if I'm not here do you?"  I said I wasn't coming to visit but to help but if you don't need my help I won't come.  I get a text message from her parents and a phone call from my son after the move about what a wonderful weekend they had with her parents on the other end of the move and how nice their new place is.  That stung. So sorry. That was insensitive of DS, knowing that they hadn't so much as accepted your help before the move, let alone have a "wonderful" time w/ you. TBF, he probably was too excited about the new home to think about that. Chances are, DIL's parents knew nothing of what went on before, so I can't fault them, but I get that it still hurt.

I said (Is this a hint or not), I'd love to see your house WHEN YOU INVITE ME.  He says- you aren't going to come when I'm not there are you?  So now I'm a PIA. 

If I come when he invites me, why would I come there when he isn't there unless he invites me when he isn't there.

 

Hmmm... Seems to me the overall message is that they want/DIL wants DS/DH to be there when you visit. It may be due to broad differences in personality, tensions between you and DIL or just an effort to establish a yours/mine policy (chances are, DS doesn't visit alone w/ her parents either). I could be wrong, but that's what I'm getting out of your story.

I wish DS would just come out and say, "This is the way we're doing things from now on." But... sigh... he may be afraid you or DH would object or something.

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43 minutes ago, RoseRed135 said:

Hmmm... Seems to me the overall message is that they want/DIL wants DS/DH to be there when you visit. It may be due to broad differences in personality, tensions between you and DIL or just an effort to establish a yours/mine policy (chances are, DS doesn't visit alone w/ her parents either). I could be wrong, but that's what I'm getting out of your story.

I wish DS would just come out and say, "This is the way we're doing things from now on." But... sigh... he may be afraid you or DH would object or something.

Sure, I get that now.  It saddens me that she doesn't want to be alone with me.  But now I know how to proceed going foreward.  I don't want to hear any complaints about me "being aloof"- (not that I have) .  There will never be any invitations from me to her not involving my son from this day foreward.  I'll never invite her to a play (we both like plays.  Our history  I've never tried to see her alone.  My son was suppose to be there when I helped with the move.  I was not my intention to do this without my son, it just happened, and I was taken aback that after I made schedule changes, that she couldn't stand to be around me "alone" for just a few hours (I was staying in a hotel). I don't phone her. I phone my son.   I've been around her once or twice a year for brief periods a few hours to one day at a time and my son is already there.  They've dated for 5 years.   Maybe the night shift had nothing to do with it and it was only that my son wasn't going to be there.  But if it was the night shift thing and she didn't want me to come, I'd like it if she just said so.   The thing that irritated me the most about my story is my son thinking that I would come  to their house uninvited.  I see him 3-4 times a year on his terms.  And up until the birthday lunch I never even suggested seeing him.

My husband and sons and both DILs are going skiing for a week in February.  She must be able to be around us (with him) for a week.

Edited by skipped

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Happy birthday, Janelle-

 

3 hours ago, skipped said:

Sure, I get that now.  It saddens me that she doesn't want to be alone with me.  But now I know how to proceed going foreward.  I don't want to hear any complaints about me "being aloof"- (not that I have) .  There will never be any invitations from me to her not involving my son from this day foreward.  I'll never invite her to a play (we both like plays.  Our history  I've never tried to see her alone.  My son was suppose to be there when I helped with the move.  I was not my intention to do this without my son, it just happened, and I was taken aback that after I made schedule changes, that she couldn't stand to be around me "alone" for just a few hours (I was staying in a hotel). I don't phone her. I phone my son.   I've been around her once or twice a year for brief periods a few hours to one day at a time and my son is already there.  They've dated for 5 years.   Maybe the night shift had nothing to do with it and it was only that my son wasn't going to be there.  But if it was the night shift thing and she didn't want me to come, I'd like it if she just said so.   The thing that irritated me the most about my story is my son thinking that I would come  to their house uninvited.  I see him 3-4 times a year on his terms.  And up until the birthday lunch I never even suggested seeing him.

My husband and sons and both DILs are going skiing for a week in February.  She must be able to be around us (with him) for a week.

 

Are you going too?

 

Is bean-dipping being passive aggressive? Anyone?

 

 

 

 

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OOps, yes I am going too.  What is bean dipping?

Edited by skipped

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7 minutes ago, skipped said:

OOps, yes I am going too.  What is bean dipping?

An abrupt change of the subject being discussed- But people bean dip for different reasons during a discussion, sometimes with a smile pasted on their face while at the same time visibly angry-

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I was never really sure.  Urban dictionary defines it differently than what people use here.  Change the subject???  Avoid the subject?

My vote is yes  passive aggressive.    Not dealing with or engaging with people is a way to get what you want.

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Hmmm... bean dipping as passive aggressive? Yes, I suppose, if someone, say, Person X is doing it to keep Person Y from being heard on a matter of interest/concern to Person Y. But if the issue is, say, none of Person Y's concern, then, IMO, bean dipping may simply be a way of setting a boundary (as in, "This issue isn't your territory.") Other times, it can save both people from a huge argument. Not an act of aggression,in that case, but rather a way to prevent possible aggression. JMHO

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24 minutes ago, skipped said:

I was never really sure.  Urban dictionary defines it differently than what people use here.  Change the subject???  Avoid the subject?

My vote is yes  passive aggressive.    Not dealing with or engaging with people is a way to get what you want.

The way I've seen it used is like:

A: How much money does your dh make? What's your mortgage? How much do you pay for daycare?

B: Oh, we're doing fine. Have you tried this bean dip?

Basically, when I've seen/heard it used or advised, it's b/c person A is asking questions of person B that they are simply rude and intrusive. Person B not only doesn't have to answer the questions, but they also don't owe an explanation as to WHY they're not answering. It's also used to get away from touchy subjects/avoid arguments.

Grandma: I want to be there when the baby is born!

Mom: It's only going to be dh and I.

Grandma: But why? 

Mom: Because that's what we've decided. Have you heard about the new movie?

Or,

Neighbour A: I saw Susie at your house yesterday. Did she tell you why she and Joe are splitting up?

Neighbour B: What lovely flowers you have! Tell me, do you fertilize?

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12 hours ago, ImpishMom said:

Basically, when I've seen/heard it used or advised, it's b/c person A is asking questions of person B that they are simply rude and intrusive. Person B not only doesn't have to answer the questions, but they also don't owe an explanation as to WHY they're not answering.

It's also used to get away from touchy subjects/avoid arguments.

I think, when people say "bean dip" they mean exactly ^^ that. They don't wanna answer, so they move along to another topic. Neither of us like to fuss with others, no arguing, no explaining our decisions - generally we change the subject and/or shut down. Works for us.

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