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GrampsX9

The Two-And-A-Half-Generation Household

387 posts in this topic

16 minutes ago, ImpishMom said:

Yes, it was a general 'you', then was addressing Gramps situation in particular.

So, it's not being 'above ground' as skipped and I mentioned earlier, it's the interaction. In which case, you sitting in the living room, while they kept to other parts of the house would not fulfill your need.

I suspect this is going to be a heck of a thing. Your ds works two jobs. Your gc are gifted, and likely have intense schedules. You want a far more intense relationship than they've ever had with you, given the distance apart, and it will cost them a lot, in terms of privacy, independence and boundaries. I guess it's going to boil down to what ds values more: cheaper living arrangements, or his family's boundaries, b/c I'm just not seeing a whole lot of room for compromise.

I feel bad for the DIL in all of this, honestly. If they're devout Mormon, it's a patriarchal set up. Which means her dh gets final say, and she's following along. If her dh decides Gramps gets a 'Grandpa's corner', she's obligated, via her faith, to follow along, regardless of what she actually wants. Which may or may not include moving in to the house to start with. I really hope, that whatever solution ends up happening, it doesn't negatively impact their marriage, if for no other reason than they have three children involved.

ETA: Something else I just thought of: your ds works 2 jobs, and you guys lived long distance until the last year or so. I wonder if part of the issue is simply that your DIL doesn't feel comfortable hosting you alone? A lot of folks don't enjoy hosting their inlaws when their spouse isn't home, and if you've been long distance until recently, she probably doesn't know you terribly well either. Plus, w/her dh working 2 jobs, she's wrangling the 3 kids and all their stuff on her own the majority of the time, so she also may feel like she genuinely can't handle one more thing on her plate w/out her dh helping out.

I disagree. "If I'm available" to me means just that. There are times I simply cannot shuffle things around, and I refuse to commit to anything blindly, giving a blanket, open ended promise. Example: I was going to enrol dd11 in Tae Kwon Do yesterday. But, we got a call that ds 5 had a spot for dental surgery yesterday. TKD was off the table, b/c I couldn't say no to finally getting the time slot for the surgery.

I realize that's a bit of an extreme example, but such is life w/kids and juggling family appointments. You can't always drop and run, or reschedule. In some cases, like ds surgery, it's just not doable. In other cases, it's not fair. Ds 12 has Cadets once a week. It wouldn't be fair to make him miss a week b/c someone else needed a ride, if whatever errand/appt could be rescheduled.

And, 'if I'm available' also means, 'ask first'. Nobody enjoys being 'volun-told'.

I was under the impression that one of the "benefits" of this arrangement for GP was that he would be cared for.   That would he would be driven to doctors appointments. To say "if I'm available" would mean to me that I could not rely on that person.  What good is that?  If the DS or DIL couldn't drive me to a doctors appointment, some other arrangement would need to be made.   To me it would be part of the deal.  What exactly is GP getting out of this arrangement? 

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4 minutes ago, skipped said:

I was under the impression that one of the "benefits" of this arrangement for GP was that he would be cared for.   That would he would be driven to doctors appointments. To say "if I'm available" would mean to me that I could not rely on that person.  What good is that?  If the DS or DIL couldn't drive me to a doctors appointment, some other arrangement would need to be made.   To me it would be part of the deal.  What exactly is GP getting out of this arrangement? 

I can't be the only person, who, when booking a Drs appt (or any other that I actually get a vote in, surgery not being one of them), looks at my schedule and books for when works for me, so wouldn't it also make sense that before booking an appt, you check w/your ride as to when works for them, vs expecting them to be available whenever?

Folks have lives. Lives have schedules. Some things are able to be flexible, some aren't. To me, "If I'm available" would be SOP, and just another way of saying, "Don't assume, check with me." It wouldn't be fair, or right, imo, to have to cancel stuff for the kids if a simple check of, "Hey, I need to go to the Drs. Is there a day this week that works for you?"

Again, nobody likes being 'volun-told'. And we're talking about a woman that has 3 gifted kids, a dh that works 2 jobs. I don't doubt that her schedule is hectic as is. Checking w/someone is just common courtesy, imo.

To expect/demand that someone be available whenever you choose to make an appt is unfair and inconsiderate, esp when they've got kids/jobs imo. 

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Imp, If agree- people should look at each other schedule.  People should realize that everyone has lives.   I wrote that everyone works together- that does mean that you check with each others schedules.  But IMO by virtue of taking the GP in, she is responsible in some way to get the GP to doctors appointments.  That does not mean he totally disregards her schedule.  You do try to work around people.  You don't TRY to inconvenience people.  You are working together.

Edited by skipped

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1 minute ago, skipped said:

Imp, If agree- people should look at each other schedule.  People should realize that everyone has lives.   I wrote that everyone works together- that does mean that you check with each others schedules.  But IMO by virtue of taking the GP in, she is responsible in some way to get the GP to doctors appointments.  That does not mean he totally disregards her schedule.  You do try to work around people.  You don't TRY to inconvenience people.  You are

Right. And, to *me*, that's what "If I'm available" actually means. A short hand version of, "I have things going on, so ask before making appts, so I can be available." vs, "Well, if I don't have anything better to do, or can't *find* anything better to do, I guess..."

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Does that mean you would feel responsible for in some way getting GP to doctors appointments.  That is what I'm getting at.  I would like to be able to rely on you.

Could I rely on you if you said, "if I'm available".  That's all I want reliability. 

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I don't recall Gramps indicating that he expected his grandchildren to sacrifice anything for him -- unless I missed him saying so- And as far as rides are concerned it seems his priority was them getting him to and from whatever facility in the event he needed surgery- But I honestly have no idea, really -- no idea if Gramps makes doctors appointments without first asking what days would be best- Then again, if they don't have an open line of communication I've no idea how that could actually happen- 

 

Edited by Komorebi

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2 minutes ago, skipped said:

Does that mean you would feel responsible for in some way getting GP to doctors appointments.  That is what I'm getting at.  I would like to be able to rely on you.

Could I rely on you if you said, "if I'm available".  That's all I want reliability. 

I would feel like I had a responsibility to do the best I could, yes. I would do everything I could to work with you to make it happen.

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32 minutes ago, Komorebi said:

I don't recall Gramps indicating that he expected his grandchildren to sacrifice anything for him -- unless I missed him saying so- And as far as rides are concerned it seems his priority was them getting him to and from whatever facility in the event he needed surgery- But I honestly have no idea, really -- no idea if Gramps makes doctors appointments without first asking what days would be best- Then again, if they don't have an open line of communication I've no idea how that could actually happen- 

 

 Gramps having a 'Grandpa corner' in the living room means they don't get the time alone w/their parents, if Gramps is there. No matter how much they may enjoy Gramps company when he visits, someone who can show up unannounced, and simply 'be there' whenever, for as long as they please, it changes the dynamics of the situation. Not being able to just hang out, play video games, or watch movies with their parents?  For example, my kids love 'movie night', and 'board game night' and have vetoed inviting their friends over for it, b/c they like it being 'just us'.

So, yes, I would say that sacrifice is being asked of the kids too. It's their family life that Gramps wants to change.

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4 hours ago, ImpishMom said:

I suspect this is going to be a heck of a thing. Your ds works two jobs. Your gc are gifted, and likely have intense schedules. You want a far more intense relationship than they've ever had with you, given the distance apart, and it will cost them a lot, in terms of privacy, independence and boundaries. I guess it's going to boil down to what ds values more: cheaper living arrangements, or his family's boundaries, b/c I'm just not seeing a whole lot of room for compromise.

I feel bad for the DIL in all of this, honestly. If they're devout Mormon, it's a patriarchal set up. Which means her dh gets final say, and she's following along. If her dh decides Gramps gets a 'Grandpa's corner', she's obligated, via her faith, to follow along, regardless of what she actually wants. Which may or may not include moving in to the house to start with. I really hope, that whatever solution ends up happening, it doesn't negatively impact their marriage, if for no other reason than they have three children involved.....ds works 2 jobs, and you guys lived long distance until the last year or so. I wonder if part of the issue is simply that your DIL doesn't feel comfortable hosting you alone? A lot of folks don't enjoy hosting their inlaws when their spouse isn't home, and if you've been long distance until recently, she probably doesn't know you terribly well either. Plus, w/her dh working 2 jobs, she's wrangling the 3 kids and all their stuff on her own the majority of the time, so she also may feel like she genuinely can't handle one more thing on her plate w/out her dh helping out.

Yes to all the bolded.

I'd bet with DS two jobs and three busy 12-15 y/o kids, they are slammed. Our ODDs kiddies are 14,12, and 3. Their activities after school run her ragged. Yesterday the two boys had to be in 2 places at nearly the same times and DGD also had an activity (ODD is a single mom, no help). People with kids are usually busy from dawn to bed time and haven't a minute to waste outside their family.

None of our five kids and their kiddies want to sacrifice what little family time they have to GPs.

Additionally, I agree with the notion that DIL may not want to be alone with FIL without DS in attendance. I wasn't alone with my PILs until dementia - my husband asked my help with MIL then (hair salon, clothes, drug pickup, receipt journal), so I helped.

I'd think hard before I asked anything more from such busy people, our kids wouldn't pile their plates higher.

ETA: Maybe DS will say "whatever you want, special chair, daily" - posters only know their own families.

 

Edited by JanelleK

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What is going to happen long term in this relationship.  They don't seem to invested in GP.  I get that they are busy.  But by encouraging GP to buy the house and make it a 2 family household, IMO they have taken on an obligation.    If these people are too busy to allow anything but perfunctory interactions, (ie who comes home from a weekend trip and doesn't at least say, hi we are home and has a 15 minute conversation), are these people too busy to help him when his health fails.

He is using his limited finances to help his son, and I have to wonder if those finances he is using to help his son are being squandered.   If his health really fails will they be too busy to look after him  when he needs it, and if  so, now that his money supply is  limited, will he be too poor  to enter a retirement community.

 

Edited by skipped
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9 minutes ago, skipped said:

What is going to happen long term in this relationship.  They don't seem to invested in GP.  I get that they are busy.  But by encouraging GP to buy the house and make it a 2 family household, IMO they have taken on an obligation.    If these people are too busy to allow anything but perfunctory interactions, (ie who comes home from a weekend trip and doesn't at least say, hi we are home and has a 15 minute conversation), are these people too busy to help him when his health fails.

He is using his limited finances to help his son, and I have to wonder if those finances he is using to help his son are being squandered.   If his health really fails will they be too busy to look after him  when he needs it, and if  so, now that his money supply is  limited, will he be too poor  to enter a retirement community.

 

I think part of the problem is, they *have* gone beyond 'perfunctory'. To me, 3x a week is a lot. Like, overwhelmingly, "I-couldn't-manage-that", a lot. To Gramps, it's nowhere near enough, b/c he envisioned spending all his waking hours upstairs with them, and only being downstairs to sleep.

The question I think is, "How much of an obligation?" and the fatal error was in not discussing this prior to moving. If they had, I strongly suspect that they would not be living together, b/c Gramps and his ds are oceans apart on this.

I think, "How much?" is a reasonable question. What the reasonable answer is, however, is so highly dependant on personal factors that one man's reasonable is another man's 'no way in Hades'.

I suspect that both Gramps and ds are feeling there was a bait and switch here.

Gramps thought he was going to be living with his ds family, as a daily part of the family.

Ds thought they'd be independent of each other, each living their own lives, getting together as they could for dinner, doing things here and there. Who knows what the DIL or gc thought would be happening with this move.

If they'd had a simple conversation about what the reality of living under the same roof would entail, they'd *both* have been able to make an informed decision, and gone from there...or not, as I suspect would've happened.

And I also suspect that if this move hadn't happened, it would've been far better for all the relationships involved.

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1 hour ago, ImpishMom said:

 Gramps having a 'Grandpa corner' in the living room means they don't get the time alone w/their parents, if Gramps is there. No matter how much they may enjoy Gramps company when he visits, someone who can show up unannounced, and simply 'be there' whenever, for as long as they please, it changes the dynamics of the situation. Not being able to just hang out, play video games, or watch movies with their parents?  For example, my kids love 'movie night', and 'board game night' and have vetoed inviting their friends over for it, b/c they like it being 'just us'.

So, yes, I would say that sacrifice is being asked of the kids too. It's their family life that Gramps wants to change.

If time alone with their parents 24/7 were given up completely that would be a sacrifice, but that wouldn't be the case- They'd be spending time "with" their parents "and" their grandparent, too- My grandchildren enjoy spending time with their parents but welcome others into the fold, as their parents do, to play games, socialize, attend sporting events so forth- Their circle is flexible- And prior to the move? Gramps son's family circle was flexible, too- It closed after the move-

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What Gramps didn't expect: To be treated differently after the move- That has nothing to do with schedules, jobs, gifted children's activities, church, grandpa chairs, dinners or photographs- It's a shift in the overall family personality that if I had to guess, someone is at helm of the shift-

Edited by Komorebi

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3 minutes ago, Komorebi said:

What Gramps didn't expect: To be treated differently after the move- That has nothing to do with schedules, jobs, gifted children's activities, church, grandpa chairs, dinners or photographs- It's a shift in the overall family personality that if I had to guess, someone is at helm of the shift-

And the bottom line is that neither Gramps nor his DS discussed who, what, when or why....so here we are. It's not too late to get it all out on the table. Gramps just needs to know he really does have options.

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15 minutes ago, Komorebi said:

If time alone with their parents 24/7 were given up completely that would be a sacrifice, but that wouldn't be the case- They'd be spending time "with" their parents "and" their grandparent, too- My grandchildren enjoy spending time with their parents but welcome others into the fold, as their parents do, to play games, socialize, attend sporting events so forth- Their circle is flexible- And prior to the move? Gramps son's family circle was flexible, too- It closed after the move-

24/7? Hardly. People sleep. Kids are in school. Dad works 2 jobs. Time w/parents is already at a premium, simply due to those issues. Assuming that kids have no extra curricular activities, and a decent bedtime, they probably have 5 hrs after school before bed. And in those five hours, they travel home from school, do homework, Mom's got supper to get ready, chores to do, baths to have, dog to walk, etc. Realistically speaking, they probably have an hour or so to just be with their parents...assuming that Dad's even home before they go to bed, and all they do is go to school and come home.

My point being, the kids need to be considered here, too. The last thing Gramps would want is the kids to resent him.

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7 minutes ago, ImpishMom said:

24/7? Hardly. People sleep. Kids are in school. Dad works 2 jobs. Time w/parents is already at a premium, simply due to those issues. Assuming that kids have no extra curricular activities, and a decent bedtime, they probably have 5 hrs after school before bed. And in those five hours, they travel home from school, do homework, Mom's got supper to get ready, chores to do, baths to have, dog to walk, etc. Realistically speaking, they probably have an hour or so to just be with their parents...assuming that Dad's even home before they go to bed, and all they do is go to school and come home.

My point being, the kids need to be considered here, too. The last thing Gramps would want is the kids to resent him.

Point being, Gramps is a human being, no different than the kids- But if those kids actually did resent him for entering their circle at all? Then I'd call it a "learned" human illness-

Edited by Komorebi

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1 minute ago, Komorebi said:

Point being, Gramps is a human being, no different than the kids- But if those kids actually did resent him for entering their circle at all? Then I'd call it a human illness-

Nobody's saying 'at all'.

However, there is a vast difference btwn planned and invited visits and being able to come and go as you please, without invite, end time, etc. Gramps said that he thought he'd only be downstairs to sleep.

That would be a *massive* change for these kids, and *would* eliminate their time w/their parents, as a nuclear family.

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4 minutes ago, ImpishMom said:

Nobody's saying 'at all'.

However, there is a vast difference btwn planned and invited visits and being able to come and go as you please, without invite, end time, etc. Gramps said that he thought he'd only be downstairs to sleep.

That would be a *massive* change for these kids, and *would* eliminate their time w/their parents, as a nuclear family.

Totally agree that's what he thought, then when he realized it's not what he got he redirected that desire to work towards a compromise-

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1 hour ago, ImpishMom said:

However, there is a vast difference btwn planned and invited visits and being able to come and go as you please, without invite, end time, etc. Gramps said that he thought he'd only be downstairs to sleep. AND this: I want, to the point of needing, a "Grandpa's corner", or a chair, where family life can swirl around me, I can hear the children playing, I can hear what's going on.

That would be a *massive* change for these kids, and *would* eliminate their time w/their parents, as a nuclear family.

Our grands have barely a moment with their parent/parents on school nights, they surely don't have time for us.

Between activities, driving home, cooking, eating, homework, practice, bathing, getting ready for tomorrow - very little time. We do live in a home with 2 teens and a LO, we get it. Why would anyone want to intrude or listen in on family-time?

ETA: as to limited finances, he has implied he has plenty of money, he just doesn't want to lose on this fiasco. Kenny: "gotta know when to hold em, know when to fold em, know when to walk away, know when to run"   We'd run.

Just curious, what in the name of all that's Holy is wrong with a dinner once in a while? SMH, "GP corner"

Edited by JanelleK

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56 minutes ago, Komorebi said:

Totally agree that's what he thought, then when he realized it's not what he got he redirected that desire to work towards a compromise-

But Gramps hasn't said that he's changed his mind at all on what he wants. He's now saying he wants, even needs a Grandpa corner. I haven't seen any indication that he's adjusted his expectations or is considering compromise.

I just don't see how open access to the family's life is a reasonable expectation. 

I'm NOT saying shove Gramps in the basement and let him grow mould, and his ds hasn't done that. Again, he's been invited to meals, it's not like they've moved in said, "We don't know you!" and cut contact. Ds has done some handy man stuff. He's been for dinners several times a week. 

It's not the open access Gramps wants, but it's also not ignoring his existence.

The needs of the family matter too. The needs of the husband and wife, the needs of the children. And it seems they're diametrically opposed in this.

Gramps doesn't seem like anything less than a Grandpa corner will have him happy.

Ds doesn't seem like that's something he'd be willing to consider.

It doesn't seem like DIL or gc have spoken in Gramps presence about it, but I would bet that DIL is of a similar mind to her dh, esp since it seems that she'd be the one doing the bulk of the hosting, w/her dh working two jobs.

I just don't see how anyone's going to be happy, they're just too far apart in what they want/need.

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6 minutes ago, ImpishMom said:

But Gramps hasn't said that he's changed his mind at all on what he wants. He's now saying he wants, even needs a Grandpa corner. I haven't seen any indication that he's adjusted his expectations or is considering compromise.

I just don't see how open access to the family's life is a reasonable expectation. 

I'm NOT saying shove Gramps in the basement and let him grow mould, and his ds hasn't done that. Again, he's been invited to meals, it's not like they've moved in said, "We don't know you!" and cut contact. Ds has done some handy man stuff. He's been for dinners several times a week. 

It's not the open access Gramps wants, but it's also not ignoring his existence.

The needs of the family matter too. The needs of the husband and wife, the needs of the children. And it seems they're diametrically opposed in this.

Gramps doesn't seem like anything less than a Grandpa corner will have him happy.

Ds doesn't seem like that's something he'd be willing to consider.

It doesn't seem like DIL or gc have spoken in Gramps presence about it, but I would bet that DIL is of a similar mind to her dh, esp since it seems that she'd be the one doing the bulk of the hosting, w/her dh working two jobs.

I just don't see how anyone's going to be happy, they're just too far apart in what they want/need.

I might be being improperly bold here .. Even with all that Gramps has expressed thus far regarding his desires I think he's simply seeking interaction with the family- Hi, Pop, grandpa, an occasional hug, how are you, what's up kind of stuff- Just some acknowledgement that he's alive and not necessarilly time set aside specifically for him- They opened their circle in similar ways prior to the move- The fact that it was summer is no excuse to flip from being kind to distancing- Children dont stop hugging their grandparents because summer has come to a close- Something is rotten in the state of Denmark- Perhaps Gramps thought he could discover the source if had a chair upstairs- I dont know that, but its possible- I do know they were not too far apart prior to the move- And as much as he doesnt like the idea of dealing with yet another move it appears, to me, that he is at least considering it- But like Mame I think theres still an opportunity prior to deciding to move to lay it all out on the table-

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21 minutes ago, Komorebi said:

I might be being improperly bold here .. Even with all that Gramps has expressed thus far regarding his desires I think he's simply seeking interaction with the family- Hi, Pop, grandpa, an occasional hug, how are you, what's up kind of stuff- Just some acknowledgement that he's alive and not necessarilly time set aside specifically for him- They opened their circle in similar ways prior to the move- The fact that it was summer is no excuse to flip from being kind to distancing- Children dont stop hugging their grandparents because summer has come to a close- Something is rotten in the state of Denmark- Perhaps Gramps thought he could discover the source if had a chair upstairs- I dont know that, but its possible- I do know they were not too far apart prior to the move- And as much as he doesnt like the idea of dealing with yet another move it appears, to me, that he is at least considering it- But like Mame I think theres still an opportunity prior to deciding to move to lay it all out on the table-

The reason I disagree is that he said visits went from 4x to 3x. That's not a huge drop, at all, especially considering school, etc. That was his initial issue. Things have seemed to progress even more negatively since, esp w/the photo issue. I also don't know if they were too far apart before the move, b/c it seems nobody talked about their expectations of what living together would actually entail, beyond, "I'll do the mortgage, you do the utilities."

Gramps hasn't budged from the idea of the Grandpa corner, in fact has increased his desire for it, now considering it akin to a 'need'. It seems his expectations for interaction have increased dramatically w/the move, whereas his ds's hasn't.

Kids don't owe anyone physical affection, so I honestly wouldn't set a whole lot of store by that. They're 11-15. Not known to be the most physically affectionate ages w/adult family members. And if my kids are any indication, that can turn on a dime, for or against. My eldest dd went through a long period where physical affection was about as welcome as shorts made out of leeches, with bursts of being super affectionate out of nowhere. Now, she hugs me all the time, unprompted. Gives a person whiplash, teens do.

Also, given that Gramps and his ds have been yelling at each other, it would suggest that there is ongoing tension in the relationship. To the kids, there may be an element of, Dad's been upset w/Gramps, so I'm upset w/Gramps for upsetting my Dad, b/c they lack the ability to see more than that. DOESN'T make Gramps the bad guy, btw, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying the kids perspective is likely narrow and biased, b/c who's side would any kid take, their parent, or anyone else if there's an argument? 

I'd treat the kids being affectionate as a red herring. There are so many potential reasons for it that it's not something that can be really addressed. Better to focus on the relationship w/their father, imo. If Gramps says, "I want hugs from the kids." it's not going to change anything, b/c bodily autonomy is something that's being more recognized and encouraged than it seemed to be in previous generations. I don't see that approach resulting in positive change.

If he approaches ds and says, "I've noticed the kids are behaving more distant since we moved. Is there something that I can do to build a relationship with them?" then he's showing he's recognized an issue, and wants to work on it. I have no clue if at this point his ds is in a place to hear anything like that, but it's a reasonable and decent approach, imo.

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37 minutes ago, ImpishMom said:

The reason I disagree is that he said visits went from 4x to 3x. That's not a huge drop, at all, especially considering school, etc. That was his initial issue. Things have seemed to progress even more negatively since, esp w/the photo issue. I also don't know if they were too far apart before the move, b/c it seems nobody talked about their expectations of what living together would actually entail, beyond, "I'll do the mortgage, you do the utilities."

Gramps hasn't budged from the idea of the Grandpa corner, in fact has increased his desire for it, now considering it akin to a 'need'. It seems his expectations for interaction have increased dramatically w/the move, whereas his ds's hasn't.

Kids don't owe anyone physical affection, so I honestly wouldn't set a whole lot of store by that. They're 11-15. Not known to be the most physically affectionate ages w/adult family members. And if my kids are any indication, that can turn on a dime, for or against. My eldest dd went through a long period where physical affection was about as welcome as shorts made out of leeches, with bursts of being super affectionate out of nowhere. Now, she hugs me all the time, unprompted. Gives a person whiplash, teens do.

Also, given that Gramps and his ds have been yelling at each other, it would suggest that there is ongoing tension in the relationship. To the kids, there may be an element of, Dad's been upset w/Gramps, so I'm upset w/Gramps for upsetting my Dad, b/c they lack the ability to see more than that. DOESN'T make Gramps the bad guy, btw, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying the kids perspective is likely narrow and biased, b/c who's side would any kid take, their parent, or anyone else if there's an argument? 

I'd treat the kids being affectionate as a red herring. There are so many potential reasons for it that it's not something that can be really addressed. Better to focus on the relationship w/their father, imo. If Gramps says, "I want hugs from the kids." it's not going to change anything, b/c bodily autonomy is something that's being more recognized and encouraged than it seemed to be in previous generations. I don't see that approach resulting in positive change.

If he approaches ds and says, "I've noticed the kids are behaving more distant since we moved. Is there something that I can do to build a relationship with them?" then he's showing he's recognized an issue, and wants to work on it. I have no clue if at this point his ds is in a place to hear anything like that, but it's a reasonable and decent approach, imo.

I think his interest in interaction has increased due to the distancing but think it will decrease once he is emotionally able to wrap his head around the fact that he's been had- Should his son continue to avoid meaningful discussion which Gramps has made efforts to initiate Gramps will reach that realization sooner than later- Considering the sons refusal to engage in discussion I can see how and why expectations werent discussed in advance- 

I dont think the children owe Gramps affection either but their age isnt the reason they both quit hugging their grandfather at the same time- Not all kids side with their parents, thank goodness! Because that bias can remain and go over like a lead weight when that child is old enough and decides to marry-

Theyve a good deal to discuss ..

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14 minutes ago, Komorebi said:

I think his interest in interaction has increased due to the distancing but think it will decrease once he is emotionally able to wrap his head around the fact that he's been had- Should his son continue to avoid meaningful discussion which Gramps has made efforts to initiate Gramps will reach that realization sooner than later- Considering the sons refusal to engage in discussion I can see how and why expectations werent discussed in advance- 

I dont think the children owe Gramps affection either but their age isnt the reason they both quit hugging their grandfather at the same time- Not all kids side with their parents, thank goodness! Because that bias can remain and go over like a lead weight when that child is old enough and decides to marry-

Theyve a good deal to discuss ..

All I can say is, at 11-15, the kids I've known will side w/their parents in a conflict, if it's the parents vs someone outside the nuclear family. 'Closing ranks' if you will. I don't know the kids, obviously, so I have no idea if it's a stage/age thing, if it's their way of dealing w/the conflict and tensions in the house, or what.

I do sincerely doubt that the parents sat down w/the kids and said, "Hey guys! We're going to con Gramps into buying a house, so be extra affectionate w/him until the deal's done, okay?" b/c the vast majority of parents would find the concept of using their children like that as completely repugnant. I also doubt the parents sat down w/the kids and said, "Hey guys, now that we're all moved in, no more hugging Gramps."

Decent parents don't use their children like that, and from what Gramps has said, his ds and DIL are good parents. He thinks they're overprotective, but I've not heard him say anything that would lead me to believe they'd deliberately play mind games w/their children and hurt them that way.

Gramps may not like what's happening btwn him and his ds, but I've not heard anything that says these ppl are terrible parents.

As for refusal to engage, I may have missed that. Ds works 2 jobs, has a wife and 3 kids, and they were gone for the wknd. I'm not sure how much time ds has to engage. If he is choosing not to engage, there may be an element of, "I'm too angry with you right now." and avoidance on the part of the ds. Gramps has downplayed/dismissed the photo debacle, but I suspect that ds and DIL aren't as quick to move past their anger over that situation.

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3 hours ago, Komorebi said:

Even with all that Gramps has expressed thus far regarding his desires I think he's simply seeking interaction with the family- Hi, Pop, grandpa, an occasional hug, how are you, what's up kind of stuff- Just some acknowledgement that he's alive and not necessarilly time set aside specifically for him- They opened their circle in similar ways prior to the move- The fact that it was summer is no excuse to flip from being kind to distancing- Children dont stop hugging their grandparents because summer has come to a close- Something is rotten in the state of Denmark- 

Yes.

Interactions have decreased to near zero.  DS texted me that the dog peed in the house and is "in trouble" (meaning she has been expelled to the walled-in yard and is not to be let into my apartment, the dog's 2nd choice).  That's it for the last 9 days.  Silence.  I'm sure the kids are busy with homework, except the 14 year old GD, who has been pulled out of school because of ADHD and now spends all of her time helping her mother.  But the DIL's parents, with whom I am on good terms, have invited me to a Friday supper where DS, DIL, and GD will also attend, so I will finally get to see their faces and talk to them after 12 days, in the parents' apartment several blocks from here.

Edited by GrampsX9

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