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GrampsX9

The Two-And-A-Half-Generation Household

387 posts in this topic

3 hours ago, Komorebi said:

Dude!

"They might move" = expectation

"Quicker than expected" = expectation

:shok:

:)

Is it though if it's just a "might do"/"maybe?"

IMO, Gramps is just looking at a possibility here, not "expecting" it.

I know expectations have been a problem in Gramps' relationship w/ DS and family. But I don't think that's the case here.

So far, Gramps, it sounds as if DS & DIL plan to buy a (probably) less expensive place since they mentioned a downpayment. But maybe they will think better of that and decide to rent. In fact, if you and they can agree on a move- out deadline, as BSW suggests, then that might prompt them to rethink their plans.

Edited by RoseRed135
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5 hours ago, RoseRed135 said:

Is it though if it's just a "might do"/"maybe?"

IMO, Gramps is just looking at a possibility here, not "expecting" it.

I know expectations have been a problem in Gramps' relationship w/ DS and family. But I don't think that's the case here.

So far, Gramps, it sounds as if DS & DIL plan to buy a (probably) less expensive place since they mentioned a downpayment. But maybe they will think better of that and decide to rent. In fact, if you and they can agree on a move- out deadline, as BSW suggests, then that might prompt them to rethink their plans.

:) "" Might do, maybe, it sounds as if, but maybe that might prompt "" is not a p l a n- :) 

EDIT: I hope if he went to the dinner tonight, that it went/is going well-

Edited by Komorebi

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17 hours ago, Komorebi said:

EDIT: I hope if he went to the dinner tonight, that it went/is going well-

I went to the family dinner, and due to a change of plans, all eight of us were there. (son's family = 5, DIL's parents = 2)

The dinner was cordial and friendly.  But since then, a couple of 'bad signs' have happened.  At the dinner, I had joked with the youngest about his busy life, and finding time to look at my chess display.  Early this afternoon, I set up the display on the back patio, with a couple of chess sets and lots of books.  No response so far.

Last night, I also sent them this email:

On October 11, I meet with my lawyer to finalize my will.  Because you didn't like the three-way TOD, I instructed her to will the house to you.  But since you are moving out, I guess I should just let the house fall into my estate and have the executor (my accountant) sell it?

No response so far.  It is a matter-of-fact estate management question, trying to make things easy for them.  Have they interpreted it as a threat?  Will my son come to tomorrow's weekly meeting shouting accusations at me?  I thought I just heard DIL and DS arguing in the kitchen above me.  Are they conflicted as to how to respond?

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11 minutes ago, GrampsX9 said:

I went to the family dinner, and due to a change of plans, all eight of us were there. (son's family = 5, DIL's parents = 2)

The dinner was cordial and friendly.  But since then, a couple of 'bad signs' have happened.  At the dinner, I had joked with the youngest about his busy life, and finding time to look at my chess display.  Early this afternoon, I set up the display on the back patio, with a couple of chess sets and lots of books.  No response so far.

Last night, I also sent them this email:

On October 11, I meet with my lawyer to finalize my will.  Because you didn't like the three-way TOD, I instructed her to will the house to you.  But since you are moving out, I guess I should just let the house fall into my estate and have the executor (my accountant) sell it?

No response so far.  It is a matter-of-fact estate management question, trying to make things easy for them.  Have they interpreted it as a threat?  Will my son come to tomorrow's weekly meeting shouting accusations at me?  I thought I just heard DIL and DS arguing in the kitchen above me.  Are they conflicted as to how to respond?

Do folks normally consult others about the distribution of their assets? Genuine question, no snark. Wolf and I have had private discussions about such things, but just as we don't discuss the details of our finances w/the kids, we've never considered discussing our will.

Do whatever you think is right with your possessions.

And yeah, I *could* see them taking it as an attempt at manipulation, especially since everything is tense w/you guys right now. Bad timing, if nothing else. Myself, I never cared about inheriting anything, so whenever my parents tried to trot out the, "Well, our will..." when I did something they didn't like, I shrugged. Their property, I'm not entitled to anything, didn't want anything, and wasn't about to live my life with threats hanging over my head whenever they had their knickers in a twist. Dobby is a FREE ELF.

Their discussion may have had nothing to do w/you. Married couples argue from time to time. Best to ignore it.

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1 hour ago, GrampsX9 said:

I went to the family dinner, and due to a change of plans, all eight of us were there. (son's family = 5, DIL's parents = 2)

The dinner was cordial and friendly.  But since then, a couple of 'bad signs' have happened.  At the dinner, I had joked with the youngest about his busy life, and finding time to look at my chess display.  Early this afternoon, I set up the display on the back patio, with a couple of chess sets and lots of books.  No response so far.

Last night, I also sent them this email:

On October 11, I meet with my lawyer to finalize my will.  Because you didn't like the three-way TOD, I instructed her to will the house to you.  But since you are moving out, I guess I should just let the house fall into my estate and have the executor (my accountant) sell it?

No response so far.  It is a matter-of-fact estate management question, trying to make things easy for them.  Have they interpreted it as a threat?  Will my son come to tomorrow's weekly meeting shouting accusations at me?  I thought I just heard DIL and DS arguing in the kitchen above me.  Are they conflicted as to how to respond?

I take it the "three-way TOD" means a TOD for DS and your 2 DDs. But when you say, "... you didn't like it," does "you" refer to DS or DS and his sisters? If it's just DS  why your 2 DDs "lose' the house b/c of how he feels?

But yes, right now, given the issues concerning the living arrangement, it's very possible they saw your comment as a veiled threat... sigh...

Really, like Imp, IMO, it's your right to do what you wish w/ your property. I can see letting DS/DIL know about a change you've made in your will, etc. at some point, so that they won't have unrealistic expectations. But no need to seek their opinion.

 

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37 minutes ago, RoseRed135 said:

I take it the "three-way TOD" means a TOD for DS and your 2 DDs. But when you say, "... you didn't like it," does "you" refer to DS or DS and his sisters? If it's just DS  why your 2 DDs "lose' the house b/c of how he feels?

But yes, right now, given the issues concerning the living arrangement, it's very possible they saw your comment as a veiled threat... sigh...

Really, like Imp, IMO, it's your right to do what you wish w/ your property. I can see letting DS/DIL know about a change you've made in your will, etc. at some point, so that they won't have unrealistic expectations. But no need to seek their opinion.

 

I must be completely odd, b/c the idea of having expectations when it comes to someone else's property baffles me.

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8 minutes ago, ImpishMom said:

I must be completely odd, b/c the idea of having expectations when it comes to someone else's property baffles me.

Yes, but if Gramps has already told them they were inheriting the house (IDK if he did or not), then it would be quite a shock to them to find out later on that it was being sold instead. Even if they were no longer living there, they might think it's going to be theirs down the road (if that's what Gramps told them), unless he lets them know he's selling.

In fact... rethinking... I'm going to take what I think is an educated guess that DS/DIL objected to the 3-way TOD b/c it might mean that they were asked (by his sisters) to agree to sell the house. Or b/c maybe DS/DIL feel that, after making their home there for years, it should just become theirs in the future.

Regardless, Gramps, apparently, went along w/ this idea. But now the situation is changing, and so, I understand his deciding to change his decision about the house. I also get it if he feels he needs to let DS/DIL know. But I think he could have done that after he made the change. No need to consult them or risk their seeing his comments as a veiled threat.

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6 minutes ago, RoseRed135 said:

Yes, but if Gramps has already told them they were inheriting the house (IDK if he did or not), then it would be quite a shock to them to find out later on that it was being sold instead. Even if they were no longer living there, they might think it's going to be theirs down the road (if that's what Gramps told them), unless he lets them know he's selling.

In fact... rethinking... I'm going to take what I think is an educated guess that DS/DIL objected to the 3-way TOD b/c it might mean that they were asked (by his sisters) to agree to sell the house. Or b/c maybe DS/DIL feel that, after making their home there for years, it should just become theirs in the future.

Regardless, Gramps, apparently, went along w/ this idea. But now the situation is changing, and so, I understand his deciding to change his decision about the house. I also get it if he feels he needs to let DS/DIL know. But I think he could have done that after he made the change. No need to consult them or risk their seeing his comments as a veiled threat.

The whole thing is just weird to me, the contemplation, or expectation, of inheriting. Not saying it's wrong, just not something I can personally wrap my head around. I've always been of the mindset that we (Wolf and I) provide for us, and have never thought about inheriting as a plan for the future. Which is why my parents ominous rumblings about their wills never worked for me. 

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Everything has suddenly changed for the better.  They invited me to watch a movie with them, which I did.  Then the 12 year old helped himself to two chess sets and lots of books.  Then we all went out to dinner together.  On returning home, I played two games of chess with the GC.

This turned from being another tense day, into one of the happiest days of my life.

My DS and I agreed that we have nothing to argue about tomorrow, and I'm invited to go to church with them.  I go with them just to be with them; I am not, and don't plan to be, a "worthy" Mormon.

I haven't asked them whether they still plan to move out, I'll ask DIL's mom next time I see her.

ImpishMom, DS objected to the TOD to all three offspring because he would make mortgage payments, the other two would presumably not, yet they would benefit from the buildup of equity in the house.

I can't read their minds, but maybe the news that I am willing the house to them is what did it.  After I told my lawyer to draft the will that way, I wondered why the heck I did that.  I now think it was God nudging me to do it that way.

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37 minutes ago, GrampsX9 said:

Everything has suddenly changed for the better.  They invited me to watch a movie with them, which I did.  Then the 12 year old helped himself to two chess sets and lots of books.  Then we all went out to dinner together.  On returning home, I played two games of chess with the GC.

This turned from being another tense day, into one of the happiest days of my life.

My DS and I agreed that we have nothing to argue about tomorrow, and I'm invited to go to church with them.  I go with them just to be with them; I am not, and don't plan to be, a "worthy" Mormon.

I haven't asked them whether they still plan to move out, I'll ask DIL's mom next time I see her.

ImpishMom, DS objected to the TOD to all three offspring because he would make mortgage payments, the other two would presumably not, yet they would benefit from the buildup of equity in the house.

I can't read their minds, but maybe the news that I am willing the house to them is what did it.  After I told my lawyer to draft the will that way, I wondered why the heck I did that.  I now think it was God nudging me to do it that way.

Why not just ask you son and daughter in-law?

 

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@GrampsX9 - So glad you had such a great day and that things seem to have taken a turn for the better!

My guess - and this is just another wild guess - is that DS and family will stay on in the house, include you more in their lives (maybe not every day, but more than before) and appreciate inheriting the house later on.

Regardless. I hope you all continue to enjoy each other!

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6 hours ago, GrampsX9 said:

Everything has suddenly changed for the better.  They invited me to watch a movie with them, which I did.  Then the 12 year old helped himself to two chess sets and lots of books.  Then we all went out to dinner together.  On returning home, I played two games of chess with the GC.

This turned from being another tense day, into one of the happiest days of my life.

My DS and I agreed that we have nothing to argue about tomorrow, and I'm invited to go to church with them.  I go with them just to be with them; I am not, and don't plan to be, a "worthy" Mormon.

I haven't asked them whether they still plan to move out, I'll ask DIL's mom next time I see her.

ImpishMom, DS objected to the TOD to all three offspring because he would make mortgage payments, the other two would presumably not, yet they would benefit from the buildup of equity in the house.

I can't read their minds, but maybe the news that I am willing the house to them is what did it.  After I told my lawyer to draft the will that way, I wondered why the heck I did that.  I now think it was God nudging me to do it that way.

Why would you get DIL's mom involved in this? You should not expect anyone to be a "middle man" between you and your son, certainly not DS's PIL's. Wait a week or two so they have time to comprehend everything that has happened recently, have discussions and make a plan, and the answer will probably come from DS. Or you can ask him after they've had time to comprehend it all and figure things out first.

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1 hour ago, Cupcake55 said:

Why would you get DIL's mom involved in this? You should not expect anyone to be a "middle man" between you and your son, certainly not DS's PIL's. Wait a week or two so they have time to comprehend everything that has happened recently, have discussions and make a plan, and the answer will probably come from DS. Or you can ask him after they've had time to comprehend it all and figure things out first.

Agreed.

Parents are no longer authority figures for AC, they become peers. The idea of going to her Mom would likely backfire, and badly. These aren't misbehaving teens that you get their parents involved with. They're adults.

As a mom, I would be insulted that someone would come to me, rather than go to my AC, because I would see that as both disrespectful of my AC, and that I was being asked to talk about them behind their backs. You might not only tick off you ds and DIL, but her parents as well.

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Happy for you that you've had a good couple of days. I hope they continue

HOWEVER...do not discuss your potential trust/will (I highly recommend a living trust, BTW rather than just a will) with your children. Mine know the content because we told them after the fact. They were not privy to any of the planning. Add the title to the trust with instructions that DS can remain in the house only if he pays the mortgage. Should he choose not to live there or defaults on the payments the house will be sold and all proceeds split 3 ways. 

And, ask DS directly if he plans to move as that is information you will need moving forward with your trust. Her mother has nothing to do with these issues, please don't involve her. 

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3 hours ago, Cupcake55 said:

Why would you get DIL's mom involved in this? You should not expect anyone to be a "middle man" between you and your son, certainly not DS's PIL's. Wait a week or two so they have time to comprehend everything that has happened recently, have discussions and make a plan, and the answer will probably come from DS. Or you can ask him after they've had time to comprehend it all and figure things out first.

Also, Gramps, DIL's mom might not know. If they take a while to decide, they may not even mention it to her.

Or she might just refer you back to DS/DiL. If someone asked me one of my DD's plans on a sensitive issue that mattered to them, I would say, "You'll have to ask her."

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7 hours ago, Mame925 said:

Happy for you that you've had a good couple of days. I hope they continue

HOWEVER...do not discuss your potential trust/will (I highly recommend a living trust, BTW rather than just a will) with your children. Mine know the content because we told them after the fact. They were not privy to any of the planning. Add the title to the trust with instructions that DS can remain in the house only if he pays the mortgage. Should he choose not to live there or defaults on the payments the house will be sold and all proceeds split 3 ways

And, ask DS directly if he plans to move as that is information you will need moving forward with your trust. Her mother has nothing to do with these issues, please don't involve her. 

Except that would mean that ds would lose any equity that he'd put into the home. Why pay a mortgage that you'd lose equity on?

Ack. That's why this house would be sold if Wolf and I die.

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Like even the flattest pancake, according to Dr. Phil, this story has two sides...DS will need housing no matter other circumstances. And he'll need to pay for it. So his choice to pay the mortgage on the home where he currently lives and share the equity with his sisters (who pay to live where ever they live) or sell the house upon Gramps' death and split the equity 3 ways....To me its a total wash. DS is already getting something for nothing currently (or very little) by living in a house rent free & paying the utilities. My kids are appalled by this story...all 3 have paid their own way since they became working adults. 

My house is to be sold upon my death assuming I continue to live here. The kids will have the opportunity to buy it if they choose (tho' none can afford it and it's not a convenient location for their current employment situations), one would be buying out the other two...unlikely scenario, but an option. Otherwise, the proceeds are split 3 ways. We've had a running joke for years that there may not be anything left to distribute when I die....DH & I always planned to spend it all...

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39 minutes ago, Mame925 said:

Like even the flattest pancake, according to Dr. Phil, this story has two sides...DS will need housing no matter other circumstances. And he'll need to pay for it. So his choice to pay the mortgage on the home where he currently lives and share the equity with his sisters (who pay to live where ever they live) or sell the house upon Gramps' death and split the equity 3 ways....To me its a total wash. DS is already getting something for nothing currently (or very little) by living in a house rent free & paying the utilities. My kids are appalled by this story...all 3 have paid their own way since they became working adults. 

My house is to be sold upon my death assuming I continue to live here. The kids will have the opportunity to buy it if they choose (tho' none can afford it and it's not a convenient location for their current employment situations), one would be buying out the other two...unlikely scenario, but an option. Otherwise, the proceeds are split 3 ways. We've had a running joke for years that there may not be anything left to distribute when I die....DH & I always planned to spend it all...

Why bother paying the mortgage at all, if the equity built becomes a three way split? That's what I'm saying.

Better to either leave it to be sold, *without* ds paying into the mortgage (therefore has no equity) or, if he's paying mortgage, then that needs to be factored in, so that he gets back what he's paid.

Otherwise, may as well just rent.

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This is kind of off topic but why do AC need to know what is in my will  even after the fact? I do plan to split things 50/50 but  whatever they get is gravy.

Also DS did sell a house.  I would ASSUME (maybe wrong) that he would get something out of the house to use as first last or a downpayment on a "reasonable" house. 

So All of a sudden,  DS et al are all acting lovey dovey again.  BIG RED FLAG

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5 minutes ago, skipped said:

This is kind of off topic but why do AC need to know what is in my will  even after the fact? I do plan to split things 50/50 but  whatever they get is gravy.

Also DS did sell a house.  I would ASSUME (maybe wrong) that he would get something out of the house to use as first last or a downpayment on a "reasonable" house. 

So All of a sudden,  DS et al are all acting lovey dovey again.  BIG RED FLAG

Yeah, I wondered about that, but it's possible it went to student loans or other debt, so is no longer available. That's what I'd do if we had a windfall, throw it at debt.

I don't know about the change either. They might be relieved that the decision to move has been made, and trying to preserve the relationship, or they might have done an about face and sucking up. Time will tell.

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@GrampsX9 - Gotta admit, I'm a little confused... Are you still planning to have your executor sell the house, etc. when that sad time comes? Or are you going to leave things as they are, w/ DS inheriting the house now that the relationship seems better? Or does it depend on whether they're moving or staying?

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The sum of both of these threads = Chess

 

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DS/DIL broke even when they sold their previous house.  Like I wrote earlier in this thread, it's a buyer's market here.

DS will still inherit the house unless my lawyer, after I tell her how fluid this situation is, advises strongly against it.  And a will can always be changed, of course.

I have a weekly dinner with DIL's parents, and next time I'll casually ask the mother if she knows whether they are still planning to move out.  If that fails, I'll ask DS or DIL.  It just feels weird, as if I'm asking them whether my grandfatherly powers changed their minds.

The house, and what my will does with it, is really small potatoes at this point because it would probably sell for a loss, or very little $.  That's my intuition, not that I can truly predict the unpredictable.

I have not discussed my will with my DDs.  Even the will is not a big deal compared to other variables I can tweak to maintain fairness overall.

--------

Church went well.  Do the last two days indicate a better future?  Or will the invisible wall return?  I know it's partly up to me to develop relationships with the GCs.

Will they still move out?  I don't know.

Whatever happens, there has been enough drama here.  Thanks for all the caring advice, this is so much information that I haven't read all of it yet.  I will reread this thread to learn more from it.  Over and out.

Edited by GrampsX9
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40 minutes ago, GrampsX9 said:

DS/DIL broke even when they sold their previous house.  Like I wrote earlier (this thread?), it's a buyer's market here.

DS will still inherit the house unless my lawyer, after I tell her how fluid this situation is, advises strongly against it.  And a will can always be changed, of course.

I have a weekly dinner with DIL's parents, and next time I'll casually ask the mother if she knows whether they are still planning to move out.  If that fails, I'll ask DS or DIL.  It just feels weird, as if I'm asking them whether my grandfatherly powers changed their minds.

The house, and what my will does with it, is really small potatoes at this point because it would probably sell for a loss, or very little $.  That's my intuition, not that I can truly predict the unpredictable.

I have not discussed my will with my DDs.  Even the will is not a big deal compared to other variables I can tweak to maintain fairness overall.

--------

Church went well.  Do the last two days indicate a better future?  Or will the invisible wall return?  I know it's partly up to me to develop relationships with the GCs.

Will they still move out?  I don't know.

Whatever happens, there has been enough drama here.  Thanks for all the caring advice, this is so much information that I haven't read all of it yet.  I will reread this thread to learn more from it.  Over and out.

Thanks for filling us in further, Gramps. Please feel free to come back in and let us know about any further developments.

Also, hope you join in some of the discussions in other threads and in other forums, etc.

Meanwhile, I hope your relationship w/ DS and family remains pleasant and no new tensions arise.... Peace...

ETA: How lovely that you have a weekly dinner w/ DIL's parents! It's good, IMO, when 2 sets of parents/PILs get along. :)

Edited by RoseRed135

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Hopefully, he won't lose tempo .. :) (again, anytime soon)

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