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GrampsX9

The Two-And-A-Half-Generation Household

387 posts in this topic

I wouldn't LIKE  to lose money.  But it might be worth it depending on the amount of aggravation the living situation was giving me. How bad really is the basement apartment?  Would it be tolerable if the other unmet expectations didn't exist?   I think living in close proximity to AC/DILs that you have a strained relationship with would be difficult.   If you really don't want to lose money,  you could get other renters who are willing to pay market rate.  It would be a gamble, because you don't know the personality of the renters you might get,  but  I also think it would be hard to get something worse, at least a stranger being unreasonable wouldn't sting so much.   I think your son and DIL won't be motivated to make any changes to the situation in your favor unless they are pushed in some way.  Why would they-  the current situation is all on their terms.    I would tell them you are willing to sell the house (if it is true) because the current situation is unbearable and then follow through.  Unless you put some pressure on them, I don't think things will improve.    If you aren't willing to sell the house, I think your stuck in your current situation,

Have you really looked into it?  You probably will lose money, but it might be worth it to get rid of the aggravation. 

Edited by skipped

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Contact an estate attorney to get all you financial ducks in a row if you don't have a living trust (recommended)/will in place already. Once these details are all contained in a single document you can move on to other things. Go in with a clear head, not a putative or angry one. Also meet with a real estate attorney (not a broker, realtor or accountant, you need an attorney) to discuss the tax implications of changing the terms of your financial agreement with your son.

Personally, I wouldn't be paying school loans or allowing my AC (along with their family!) to live for free. My kids don't think they are entitled to my support. DD asked to borrow some money, not an insignificant sum...but she came to me with A PLAN. She had already been to "bankrate(.)com" for a fair, slightly below market interest rate and set up direct payment from her paycheck. It's easy-peasy for everyone and terribly adult on her part. 

Instead of kvetching on and on, get it all out in the open, get some family counseling to facilitate the process. Knowing where you stand allows you to take a stand in your own best interest. 

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Good advice Mame

 

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@GrampsX9 - I imagine DS made his usual 9 AM visit this morning. Did you ask him why the GC can't come down to your apartment? If so, what did he say?

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Lack of appreciation is the core issue in this situation- How can that be changed?

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We can't make someone else change though, we only can change ourselves.

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Is it impossible to teach gratitude and appreciation to others -- even in situations such as the one being discussed?

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  All I could think of is "You shouldn't bite the hand that feeds you".   I don't expect gratitude, just not to be eaten alive.  In this situation, I'd feel used.  This son expects to get at lot, give a little, and doesn't seem to show any kind of caring or compassion for the OP.  What about HIM asking the GP what he wants out of this arrangement..  

Edited by skipped
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3 hours ago, SueSTx said:

We can't make someone else change though, we only can change ourselves.

What could Gramps change about himself that would shift the way in which his family currently treats him? 

Edited by Komorebi

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I don't personally "know" gramps nor his family.  There is no way I could know if he has anything that he could change to make his situation better or not.  I do know that he can't force his son/DIL and GKs to change to include him more in their lives.  

One of my own granny's favorite sayings was, "You can catch more flies with sugar than with vinegar.", comes to mind though.  

If he sees this can't be fixed in this current situation, what does HE plan to do about it?
 

 

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2 hours ago, skipped said:

  All I could think of is "You shouldn't bite the hand that feeds you".   I don't expect gratitude, just not to be eaten alive.  In this situation, I'd feel used.  This son expects to get at lot, give a little, and doesn't seem to show any kind of caring or compassion for the OP.  What about HIM asking the GP what he wants out of this arrangement..  

 

3 minutes ago, SueSTx said:

I don't personally "know" gramps nor his family.  There is no way I could know if he has anything that he could change to make his situation better or not.  I do know that he can't force his son/DIL and GKs to change to include him more in their lives.  

One of my own granny's favorite sayings was, "You can catch more flies with sugar than with vinegar.", comes to mind though.  

If he sees this can't be fixed in this current situation, what does HE plan to do about it?
 

 

Yes, my own mother offered the same advice- Another person I knew used to say, "Kill them with kindness-"

What it all boils down to is giving with a glad heart but not more than a heart can afford- 

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4 hours ago, skipped said:

  All I could think of is "You shouldn't bite the hand that feeds you".   I don't expect gratitude, just not to be eaten alive.  In this situation, I'd feel used.  This son expects to get at lot, give a little, and doesn't seem to show any kind of caring or compassion for the OP.  What about HIM asking the GP what he wants out of this arrangement..  

The youngest could have eaten us out of house and home- Six three, active, slim with a hollow leg,  After moving out brought it to our attention that he discovered how much he costs to feed- And I feel that sharing that knowledge with us was his way of extending gratitide- So like you suggest, it doesnt take much to feel appreciated-

As much as it hurts to be eaten alive from the outside in, it just compounds problems to let getting eaten alive from the outside in to eat you (general) up inside too- 

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5 hours ago, Komorebi said:

What could Gramps change about himself that would shift the way in which his family currently treats him? 

As Sue says, it's hard for us to know. But I have a few guesses. One thing would be to take more care to respect their wishes/feelings. For example, I'm sure he had the best of intentions when he put together those albums. But knowing how DIL feels about candid shots, it would have been wiser, IMO, not to make a gift of such albums to her or her parents. If he wanted to put all those pictures together, he could have simply made an album for himself.

Another thing would be to find out why this/that bothers them. For instance, if he asked DS why the GC can't come down to his apt., and it Ds gave him a reason that was something he could change - then he could see about changing it (if he could bring himself to change whatever it is). But we don't know, of course, b/c Gramps hasn't told us about that conversation yet or if it even took place.

But there might not be anything Gramps can do to change their attitude/behavior. Or he may not be able to change it enough to get the amount of time with them he wants. He may only be able to change how he reacts to it and what he does for himself. That could include taking steps to make his apt more cozy and comfortable, as PPs have suggested. Or it could mean getting out of the situation altogether - selling the house, etc., as skipped suggested, even if there is some loss of money. As you say below, it "boils down to... giving with a glad heart" - and, right now, Gramps' heart does not seem to me to be very "glad."

4 hours ago, Komorebi said:

 

 

What it all boils down to is giving with a glad heart but not more than a heart can afford- 

 

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5 hours ago, RoseRed135 said:

As Sue says, it's hard for us to know. But I have a few guesses. One thing would be to take more care to respect their wishes/feelings. For example, I'm sure he had the best of intentions when he put together those albums. But knowing how DIL feels about candid shots, it would have been wiser, IMO, not to make a gift of such albums to her or her parents. If he wanted to put all those pictures together, he could have simply made an album for himself.

Another thing would be to find out why this/that bothers them. For instance, if he asked DS why the GC can't come down to his apt., and it Ds gave him a reason that was something he could change - then he could see about changing it (if he could bring himself to change whatever it is). But we don't know, of course, b/c Gramps hasn't told us about that conversation yet or if it even took place.

But there might not be anything Gramps can do to change their attitude/behavior. Or he may not be able to change it enough to get the amount of time with them he wants. He may only be able to change how he reacts to it and what he does for himself. That could include taking steps to make his apt more cozy and comfortable, as PPs have suggested. Or it could mean getting out of the situation altogether - selling the house, etc., as skipped suggested, even if there is some loss of money. As you say below, it "boils down to... giving with a glad heart" - and, right now, Gramps' heart does not seem to me to be very "glad."

 

That's only a portion of my quote- I said, "What it all boils down to is giving with a glad heart but not more than a heart can afford-" 

I believe he did give with a glad heart but unfortunately gave more than his heart could afford to give -- in this instance, because his family took more than what was offered- Gramps, if he chooses to, can take what wasn't offered back- If he did, it could be win-win for both he and his family- They more than likely would balk in the beginning but eventually may come to appreciate what was given when they compare it to having to move -- which I highly doubt they would do- 

 

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8 minutes ago, Komorebi said:

That's only a portion of my quote- I said, "What it all boils down to is giving with a glad heart but not more than a heart can afford-" 

I believe he did give with a glad heart but unfortunately gave more than his heart could afford to give -- in this instance, because his family took more than what was offered- This, IMO, gets back to mismatched expectations - DS and DIL may have thought Gramps was offering something very different than what he thought and vice versa. Gramps, if he chooses to, can take what wasn't offered back- If he did, it could be win-win for both he and his family- They more than likely would balk in the beginning but eventually may come to appreciate what was given when they compare it to having to move -- which I highly doubt they would do- 

 

But I think he would have to be very careful not to approach this as something he was holding over them in the hopes that they would decide to cave in order to stay in the house. If that happens, lucky for Gramps. But it might not - they might agree to move, after all. He would have to be prepared to actually sell. And he doesn't seem to want to do that right now.

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27 minutes ago, RoseRed135 said:

But I think he would have to be very careful not to approach this as something he was holding over them in the hopes that they would decide to cave in order to stay in the house. If that happens, lucky for Gramps. But it might not - they might agree to move, after all. He would have to be prepared to actually sell. And he doesn't seem to want to do that right now.

Why Rose?  Would you be giving the same advice to Janelle if her daughter was being difficult to live with? We just had a thread in another forum regarding AC living in  their parents house and how they need to follow  the owners house rules.  Why is this different?  Your AC aren't suppose to be allowed to dictate how you run your life.  You don't have to enable your children and allow them to live with you  to the point that it makes you miserable.  This is GP house.   Somehow the son  thinks paying utilities makes it partly their  house.  It doesn't.  Most 20 something people living with their parents contribute in some way to the running of the house.  That does not make it their house. So IMO if you really want to negotiate with terrorists (I wouldn't) go ahead and hold the house over them.   IMO in order to get them to change you can't care if they cave or don't cave.  You only have to be willing to do whatever it takes to end your misery.  Gramps Repeat after me- This is your house.  If this situation is really unbearable,   they'd  have to at least cave on at least enough to make it bearable, if they expect to live in that house with me there footing the bill.   They have no incentive to change unless Gramps holds HIS house over their heads.

ETA_ You are right though Rose, that that might mean you would have to sell.  They might not have to cave.  It's just the "holding  the house over them"

that I disagree with.  It sounded like you thought that was unfair tactics. 

Edited by skipped

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25 minutes ago, RoseRed135 said:

But I think he would have to be very careful not to approach this as something he was holding over them in the hopes that they would decide to cave in order to stay in the house. If that happens, lucky for Gramps. But it might not - they might agree to move, after all. He would have to be prepared to actually sell. And he doesn't seem to want to do that right now.

What was offered was a situation- They moved into said situation and took over- He didn't hold the situation over their heads to begin with to get them to move in, so I see no reason why he would hold said situation over their heads should he take back what they took that wasn't offered to them from the onset- One result of doing such would be that they choose to move but that would be their decision and not something that Gramps asked them to do-

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6 minutes ago, skipped said:

Why Rose?  Would you be giving the same advice to Janelle if her daughter was being difficult to live with? We just had a thread in another forum regarding AC living in your house following the owners house rules.  Why is this different?  Your AC aren't suppose to be allowed to dictate how you run your life.  You don't have to enable your children and allow them to live with you  to the point that it makes you miserable.  This is GP house.   Somehow they think paying utilities makes it their  house.  It doesn't.  Most 20 something people living with their parents contribute in some way to the running of the house.  That does not make it their house. So IMO if you really want to negotiate with terrorists (I wouldn't) go ahead and hold the house over them.   IMO in order to get them to change you can't care if they cave or don't cave.  You only have to be willing to do whatever it takes to end your misery.  Gramps Repeat after me- This is your house.  If this situation is really unbearable,   they'd  have to at least cave on at least enough to make it bearable, if they expect to live in that house with me there footing the bill.   They have no incentive to change unless Gramps holds HIS house over their heads.

I take it the "you" in here is "you-general."

And yes, I would give the same advice to Janelle. What difference does the member make? My point is that if he holds the house over the heads, assuming they'll change, he could be sorely disappointed. He needs to be prepared for the fact that they really might move out. I can see saying, in effect, "Leave if you can't follow my rules in my home." I can even see saying, in effect, "In fact, I might as well sell the house and we can all move." But in both cases, IMO, you (general) need to ready for the fact that your AC and family may take the "move-out" option. This is not a game, nor should it be played like one, in my view.

Regardless, Gramps, if you do change your mind and decide to consider selling the house - and if DS and DIL move out - they could be angry enough (not that they should be) - to cut you off for a very long time. But it might be worth finding yourself in a happier daily living situation. Only you can know how you feel about that, of course.

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It doesn't much matter what either party expected- What matters is that the taking over the house by them wasn't what Gramps offered- In other words, he didn't give that to them- They took it-

Edited by Komorebi
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18 minutes ago, RoseRed135 said:

I take it the "you" in here is "you-general."

And yes, I would give the same advice to Janelle. What difference does the member make? My point is that if he holds the house over the heads, assuming they'll change, he could be sorely disappointed. He needs to be prepared for the fact that they really might move out. I can see saying, in effect, "Leave if you can't follow my rules in my home." I can even see saying, in effect, "In fact, I might as well sell the house and we can all move." But in both cases, IMO, you (general) need to ready for the fact that your AC and family may take the "move-out" option. This is not a game, nor should it be played like one, in my view.

Regardless, Gramps, if you do change your mind and decide to consider selling the house - and if DS and DIL move out - they could be angry enough (not that they should be) - to cut you off for a very long time. But it might be worth finding yourself in a happier daily living situation. Only you can know how you feel about that, of course.

How is that not calling the kettle black? In other words, he shouldn't hold the house over their heads (which isn't anything I'm suggesting) but he should be fearful should they hold cutting him off over his head? Where is the equality in that? It's like saying, be afraid, be very afraid that you might not see people who don't appreciate you- How is that even logical?

 

Edited by Komorebi

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15 minutes ago, RoseRed135 said:

I take it the "you" in here is "you-general."

And yes, I would give the same advice to Janelle. What difference does the member make? My point is that if he holds the house over the heads, assuming they'll change, he could be sorely disappointed. He needs to be prepared for the fact that they really might move out. I can see saying, in effect, "Leave if you can't follow my rules in my home." I can even see saying, in effect, "In fact, I might as well sell the house and we can all move." But in both cases, IMO, you (general) need to ready for the fact that your AC and family may take the "move-out" option. This is not a game, nor should it be played like one, in my view.

Regardless, Gramps, if you do change your mind and decide to consider selling the house - and if DS and DIL move out - they could be angry enough (not that they should be) - to cut you off for a very long time. But it might be worth finding yourself in a happier daily living situation. Only you can know how you feel about that, of course.

I agree with this.  You posted this before I made an addendum.  I was commenting on the "holding the house over them" comment.  The way that is written it sounded like unfair tactics.  I don't think they are unfair.

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In my opinion...and it is worth very little...the main issue here is the fact that this house was purchased with the express intention of living in it as a two family unit (or at least that is what the son chooses to think).  IF either of my AC and their family expressed a need/desire to move into my home (their childhood home) it is obvious that this is my house and they are moving in with me and I will not be regulated to a basement, the master is and will always be mine.

My main question is...was there a single discussion about what the living arrangements would be in this "new" house...or did everybody just assume things would be a certain way and they are not?  Now that gramps isn't comfortable with how things are working...what does HE intend to do about it?

We can make suggestions and comments all we want, but we can't fix this for him.

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1 hour ago, SueSTx said:

My main question is...was there a single discussion about what the living arrangements would be in this "new" house...or did everybody just assume things would be a certain way and they are not?  Now that gramps isn't comfortable with how things are working...what does HE intend to do about it?

There really aren't enough facts to know exactly what is going on in Gramps home.

He says there was no agreement before buying/moving into a multi family dwelling. It doesn't seem that there was a concrete plan about privacy/floor in this house - landlord/tenant arrangement. He says his Son/DIL dislike certain types of photos and prefer other types, but he seems to have just done whatever he wants regarding photos. He seems to have opinions on DILs mom and about their religious choices. He hasn't said what the mortgage vs the utilities payments by ratio amounts or the student loans amount (not that we need precise numbers, but no comparative facts are available). He certainly has a negative view of his DIL/DS. He doesn't seem to want to improve his own situation (more lighting, make new friends etc). None of that plays well. If no rules were laid down in advance, making some seems logical.

Unfortunately, our ODD and her 3 kiddies live with us, however, we don't believe we can make rules regarding how much time we see ODD and her family members, only rules about bills, cleaning, yardwork, etc - rights and responsibilities. We are not in the same position, we want our empty-nest. But ODD and kiddies need a safe place to live, their mom is an underpaid teacher, and we need house sitters - this arrangement will likely continue until the 3 yr old graduates college. YDD and her family lived here a few months because their home fought with a tree and lost. She's not easy, but there was an end in sight and the amount we worked out of state during her home reno was remarkable.  ;)   

BUT, let's say ODD, YDD, SonIL, or any kiddies acted out poorly and we didn't care for their actions, we'd discuss their behavior. We would never make idle threats about our homes or possessions. That's punitive - there's nothing in our lives (or Gramps - that he has divulged facts about) warranting that.

ETA: as Sue says we only have opinions, Gramps has to decide for himself.

Edited by JanelleK
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On 9/22/2017 at 9:09 AM, GrampsX9 said:

I might try apologizing if I can find a way to do so without justifying her reaction.  I hope my son continues our weekly meetings in my apartment, scheduled for 9 a.m. every Sunday morning.  I will ask him then why no GCs here.  However, I can guess.  (1) They are Mormon and I am not,* and (2) DIL is super protective and probably fears that I may poison their minds in some way.

* I do not want to start a discussion of religion, that is best left for a separate thread, or perhaps it's banned here.

As for DIL's reaction to what she calls "candid" photos:  This was an expensive book, the maximum Shutterfly size, over $100.  The photos are sweet, intimate, and candid by my definition (I'm not sure how she defines it) -- informal and sometimes uninhibited.  For example, one of them shows her rolling down a hill with the rest of the family.  That photo and almost all of the photos in the book were taken by other family members or friends long ago, and shared with me.  They even shared photos of their very young children in a bathtub.  (I did not use those photos.)  But over the years, DIL has fallen in love with ComiCon and other ways of dressing up and posing for a photo.  So now she wants herself and family to be in only posed photos.  I made the mistake of posting, on Facebook, two photos of them walking to, and walking from the nearby church.  They are nicely dressed and at a great distance on the sidewalk, barely identifiable.  Yet DIL and DS (probably just following her lead) were offended by my posting these pics on Facebook!  Other members of my family agree with me that they overreacted.  But they are absolutely unswayed in their attitude.  I find this totally weird, and that's one reason why it's hard for me to apologize.

But back to the photo book.  I ordered two copies, one for them and one for DIL's parents.  While I was working outside, DS walked out and, in front of me, dropped their copy into the trash.  But too late, the other copy was already on its way.  Now that DIL's parents have received it, SILENCE.  If I'm lucky, DS will come down for our Sunday meeting and rake me over the coals.

Were they aware that you were taking these pictures?

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Imp, Why are you focusing on the photos.  I agree the OP shouldn't have done what he had done.  But IMO the issue over the photos is only an indication of a bigger problem.   And those problems seemed to exist before they moved in together.   It doesn't seem to be a new problem that GP isn't allowed to be alone with the GC (OP is it?)   They already had one issue over photos.  But there were still hugs and kisses before the move in. 

To me the problem is 3 fold- 1) there are relationship strains that existed prior to the move and were rug swept by the son and ignored by the OP, those issues are continuing maybe exacerbated by the close proximity.  2) The living situation in the basement is not what the OP expected and is not what he can tolerate.  3) Financially the OP is being taken advantage of (or allowing himself to be taken advantage of)

 

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