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RoseRed135

Controversy over National Anthem and NFL players!

153 posts in this topic

Sorry, skipped, but the quote feature isnt working for me-

His parents support his kneeling during the anthem :)

I dont know very mich about the game either-

No, many arent impressed but based on his level of talent those with equal talent have never been without employment as long as he has-

Doesnt Tebow play for the Mets?

 

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I heard his parents are wealthy, so that's why I thought you meant they support him.  He doesn't have to work so he can hold out and be unemployed longer making him the longest above average unemployed QB in history.   Anybody else would have moved on by now.  They'd have to.

IMO above average players (Tebow and Kaepernick) don't get away with what super star like Steelers QBs #7 (who by the way seems to have cleaned up his act).  We all hear about the college stars who have other people doing their term papers.  The high school started caught smoking in the locker room who gets away with it.  It isn't only the Kaepernicks of the world who get unfair treatment.  If your good enough, you get away with more..

Didn't Le Bron James and the Cavs do the same thing  (take a knee)?   I don't see him unemployed. 

Edited by skipped

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Tim Tebow: As a member of the Denver Broncos, he started the last three games of his rookie season and became the team's full-time starting quarterback beginning in the sixth game of 2011. The Broncos were 1–4 before he became the starter, but began winning with him on the field, often coming from behind late in the fourth quarter, until they won their first AFC West title and first playoff game since 2005, defeating the Pittsburgh Steelers in overtime.[5] Despite his success, however, Tebow’s potential as a professional level quarterback was called into question due to a perceived lack of passing ability, persistent fumbles, and having the lowest passing completion rate in the league.

Colin Kaepernick:  Kaepernick began his professional football career as a backup quarterback to Alex Smith, and he became the 49ers' starter in the middle of the 2012 season after Smith suffered a concussion. He then remained the team's starting quarterback for the rest of the season, leading the team to their first Super Bowl appearance since 1994. During the 2013 season, his first full season as a starter, Kaepernick helped the 49ers reach the NFC Championship Game. Over the next three seasons, however, Kaepernick and the 49ers failed to qualify for the playoffs. Kaepernick's performance was pointed out as a major reason, which led to him being benched multiple times over that span.(And his last contract was over $10M....his parent's don't support him)

*This is performance related info only. 

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From what I read he had a good couple of seasons, his playing deteriorated, He has a high percentage passing game which may be because he lets himself get sacked before he throws an incompletion.  He was the second worse player in the NFL for sacks.

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Bottom line: Standing for the anthem isn't mandatory- The rules indicate players should -- should doesn't suggest they must- Not standing for the anthem isn't a punishable offense-

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Perhaps this is a question for another thread- But what's your personal take on people who brag about protesting? Something about it bothers me, seems false- Don't mistake passion for causes and lump it into the bragging category because passion for protesting and supporting causes is another story all its own- But there's this dude on another forum being an ***wippe about kneeling, like he's the "big deal" instead of the deal being the cause he supports- Do you find that annoying at all? Have you come across it?

Edited by RoseRed135
guideline 5e

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I do not watch any sports so take any comment from me with a grain of salt as usual.

I agree that there are many things going on in our country that need to change and people with some "celebrity" status and money can further their cause in front of a camera,

BUT, IMHO...sports figures hold no more clout than an actor or any other public figure.  I don't watch a movie to hear a "gripe".  I will either get up and leave or change the channel.  When I hear an actor/actress threaten to leave the country due to the election results, I would gladly help them pack.  If they have a complaint...work through channels to change things the next election.

Sports figures to me are no different.  If it is game day, play the game.  If politics are involved in any way (yes, even Trump),  I'll disconnect if I am watching.

Martin Luther King was noted for his character during the segregation marches by those that agreed and disagreed.  If these protests were actually changing anything, I might feel different, but it is the same ole same ole thing every week with no changes.

I'm a Texas born and bred and I took notice of Jerry Jones who has been a staunch supporter of President Donald Trump, so the speculation was that he would not allow his players to kneel during the national anthem, but  the Cowboys and their owner did kneel before Monday nights game, though not during the anthem.  Many people feel that the protestors are disrespecting the flag.  There are other ways to protest and get your message across.

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I'm not much of a sports-watcher either, so most of what I know about the recent controversy, I get from the News, FB, googling, and yes, the discussion here.

But as I understand it, protesters are reacting to the 3rd verse of the National Anthem and the racial schism which it, apparently, represents (and the lingering racism and social injustice that seems to go w/ that) - not to the flag itself.. Unfortunately, not many people are cognizant of that verse - probably b/c we generally don't sing it - so, as Sue points out, to many, the kneeling comes off as "disrespecting the flag."

I'm a little torn on this one. Of course, I'm against, social/racial injustice, etc. OTOH, though, I'm not sure if reacting to that 3rd verse makes very much sense, given that, as I said, we don't generally sing it. (In fact, I never even knew anything about it till this controversy began.) OTOH, I realize that others are concerned that it is even there in the song and see it as a sign of all that's still wrong in this country, as far as race relations are concerned.

Do I respect the players' right to protest? Yes. Do I respect other people's right to criticize their methods, etc? Yes. Do I think the protesters should be fired for it, as Trump suggests? No. Absolutely not!The right to free speech, including (non-violent) protest, is one of the values the flag stands for, IMO. Besides, I'm glad this is a peaceful protests, unlike some others we've seen in recent times.

Edited by RoseRed135
clarity

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1 hour ago, RoseRed135 said:

Do I respect the players' right to protest? Yes. Do I respect other people's right to criticize their methods, etc? Yes. Do I think the protesters should be fired for it, as Trump suggests? No. Absolutely not!The right to free speech, including (non-violent) protest, is one of the values the flag stands for, IMO. Besides, I'm glad this is a peaceful protests, unlike some others we've seen in recent times.

We're an all sports all the time family - don't watch much TV other than ANY sports and news (in that order). I've been fascinated watching this unfold and hearing what others think (aside my family).

It seems the protest Colin Kaepernick started - has spread throughout the NFL, without Colin Kaepernick under contract or suited up this season. I guess his protest against inequality and police brutality is being heard, even if he's not on the field. That's a good way to peacefully protest, in my opinion. Recently, most of the teams stayed in the tunnel, took a knee, or found some form of solid group response to the endless tweets. Remarkable.

“If they take football away, I know that I stood for what is right,” Kaepernick: to NFL Network, Aug 2016.  I guess the owners took football away, but this last few days they certainly got in line with his protest. Not a bad response - Tiny David turned Giant Rich Goliath.  ETA: peaceful protest started in the NFL, who could've guessed?

Edited by JanelleK
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People are angry about POC protesting in the streets.  They are angry about POC blocking traffic.  People are angry that POC protest in a way that makes them actually have to take notice.  So, please, can someone tell me how I, a POC, can protest so as not to offend your tender sensibilities?  What is the proper way that you will allow me to protest social injustice?  How may I protest so as not to seem too "uppity" to those of you who are so offended or bothered?  

Think I'll put this here since it seems fitting.  Edited to remove image because it contained a curse word.  I'll just say it was a meme posted by the Daily Show.  A picture of Trevor Noah with this little poem.  

It's wrong to do it in the streets.

It's wrong to do it in the tweets.

You cannot do it on the field.

You cannot do it if you've kneeled.

And do not do it if you're rich

You ungrateful son of a ____.

Because there's one thing that's a fact

You cannot protest if you're Black.  

Edited by britomart
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7 minutes ago, britomart said:

People are angry about POC protesting in the streets.  They are angry about POC blocking traffic.  People are angry that POC protest in a way that makes them actually have to take notice.  So, please, can someone tell me how I, a POC, can protest so as not to offend your tender sensibilities?  What is the proper way that you will allow me to protest social injustice?  How may I protest so as not to seem too "uppity" to those of you who are so offended or bothered?  

Think I'll put this here since it seems fitting.  Edited to remove image because it contained a curse word.  I'll just say it was a meme posted by the Daily Show.  A picture of Trevor Noah with this little poem.  

It's wrong to do it in the streets.

It's wrong to do it in the tweets.

You cannot do it on the field.

You cannot do it if you've kneeled.

And do not do it if you're rich

You ungrateful son of a ____.

Because there's one thing that's a fact

You cannot protest if you're Black.  

Pot Kettle

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16 minutes ago, skipped said:

Pot Kettle

Not sure how it's pot calling kettle black.  

I'm asking you.  How can I, a person of color, protest so that I do not appear too uppity to you and/or anyone else who is bothered by some football players taking a knee during the national anthem?

By the way, Kaepernick was originally sitting the first two times he protested but then he asked a veteran how he could protest in a way that would be respectful and he was told he should kneel, so he did.  So, the Black man asked how he could do this so as not to appear too  "uppity" and apparently it's not enough.  Still too "uppity" I guess.  So, again, skipped, if it's too "uppity" and bothersome for someone like Kap or me to kneel then please tell me how to protest injustice.  Thanks for any helpful suggestions!

Edited by britomart
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Well for one thing you vote.

And since you are the person who would cut off her own father if he didn't vote the way you feel is appropriate, I call that pot kettle.

So I can't even vote the way I feel appropriate without offending you.

Edited by skipped

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1 minute ago, skipped said:

Well for one thing you vote.

And since you are the person who would cut off her own father if he didn't vote the way you feel is appropriate, I call that pot kettle.

I do vote.  So do many other POC who protest injustice.  Is voting the only way we are allowed to protest injustice so as not to seem to uppity?

Not sure why you think I would cut off my father for voting in a way I don't feel is appropriate.  I didn't feel it was appropriate for him to vote for George W. Bush two times but he did.  I still see him and talk to him.  My in-laws voted for Trump and have displayed a **** flag and after a very long break from them I still see them.  They are racist and I do not like them and I will not leave my children alone with them but I will visit them with my husband.  

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And while I do think voting for a racist like Trump is gross and does indicate the voter is either racist or has no problem with the existence of racism and no problem with making a racist president I do not think we should force people to vote a certain way and I do not advocate firing people for voting a certain way.  I'm not saying that Trump voters should be fired simply for the way they voted.  I'm not saying that there should be a law making it illegal to vote for Trump.  

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I don't think POC protesting is uppity...I admire Martin Luther King.  The Help is one of my favorite movies.  I was a young child and couldn't understand two water fountain, the blacks having to set in the balcony at the movies, and being served out the back door at our local cafes. 

I was a freshman when desegregation  happened in our school and made many new friends.  At our class reunion several years ago, the black classmates came in late because they had all attended the wake for one of our members.    We didn't know if we would be welcome to go.  They sat at a different table because the first was full.  I was the first to finish eating and moved to their table to visit.  The "football boys" gathered around the bar visiting.  It felt odd being segregated again and I didn't like it not one bit.  After taking up a donation for flowers from the entire group, we were assured we would be welcomed at the funeral.  The class president even spoke about our wonderful friend.  We changed the time of lunch on Saturday so many could go to the funeral. 

I'm sorry that you have been made to feel that you are 'uppity'.  I think it is wonderful that so many of us have 'bettered' ourselves beyond what our parents ever even dreamed of no matter our color.

That being said, it doesn't change my feelings about anyone sitting or kneeling at a game.  I think there are better more productive ways to get good publicity for the cause.  Right now there are many people trying to clean up after mother nature.  If these protestors both black and white would make an appearance I know there would be cameras turned on and folks would listen.

Edited by SueSTx

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I've a beef with Berkley (uppity) not allowing speakers but no beef with Kaepernick (not uppity) calling attention to inequality, specifically police brutality- (spell check suggests Pumpernickel for his name LMAO..)   

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Here's the problem I have.

Trump decided that there were some 'very fine' people amongst the Neo-Nazis and KKK marchers.

But an NFL player taking a knee is a son of a *****s.

Interesting how he can find something positive amongst blatant racists, brandishing torches, a woman being run over and killed, but a Black man taking a knee is soundly insulted, as is his mother.

FTR, Kaepernick's mother said, via Twitter, "Guess that makes me a proud  ***ch."

From an outsider perspective, I find it depressing that folks are demanding that athletes perform for their entertainment, and NOTHING MORE. They're more upset about ppl quietly taking a knee than they are about unarmed Black men being shot by police.

Just goes to show, imo, how much higher folks value their entertainment than average lives.

And also FTR, I'm very good friends with military personnel and military spouses. Have been for about a decade. And every last one of them support NFL players taking a knee, stating that they're exercising their Constitutional rights....which are the exact things that they serve in the military (or their spouses do) to protect.

The most gobsmacked I've been is witnessing a non-military person (not spouse, not family, not serving) EXPLAINING to a military wife why SHE'S WRONG to support NFL players. Cause yanno, it's not like someone that's attended God only knows how many military funerals, held sobbing widows and children in her arms, lived with the terrifying spectre of her husband never coming home would actually have a more valid pov than someone that has no association w/the military. 

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13 minutes ago, Komorebi said:

I've a beef with Berkley (uppity) not allowing speakers but no beef with Kaepernick (not uppity) calling attention to inequality, specifically police brutality- (spell check suggests Pumpernickel for his name LMAO..)   

Berkely was wrong for cancelling offensive speakers. It was a digrace that the cradle of the free speech movement cancelled speakers that would offend people. I was deeply disappointed. I think Milo Y and Ann Coulter are disgusting vile racist pigs. Pure evil but they should be allowed to speak. College is where you go to learn and have your views challenged, not be protected from views that are different. 

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I just read another article about the "kneeling".  It had many well made points and ended with:

Do whatever it is your heart desires - other than agreeing that the government should feel emboldened to suggest limiting how and when a citizen of this country can protest. Not here. Not under our flag.

Good idea.

PS:  my own sister is retired military as is her husband and her best friend.  She promotes standing.  It is all a personal choice.

 

Edited by SueSTx
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It's the 3rd stanza to the poem, not another verse of the song. Sort of like remaking a vintage prom dress into something modern, discard what doesn't work and keep what does. Key was another 'man of his times' who was taught that the Black race was inferior. It sounds like he never bothered to find out that wasn't true until he was confronted with the truth. He wrote a poem. That's all. Someone else came along and set it to music leaving out the inappropriate verse. It's a remake.

Those who think "America Sucks", etc...IMO, have two choices. Work for the changes you think need to happen or leave. I'm all for a peaceful, legitimate protest. I'm not a bandwagonner....which is what I see the 'kneeling during the anthem' has turned into. 

Kaepernick played locally...so I saw far more of him than most...was never much of a fan to begin with. I've always had trouble with the 'spoiled golden child" being the spokesperson for social injustice. Get involved in the communities where change is needed. 

POC to me are just P....my most recent school is greater than 50% Latino, about 30% Black and the rest a mix of Asian & White. Out of a student body of nearly 1000, there are 16 White students. It is not a school of privilege. There is a focus on knowledge, college & career. Not everyone needs a 4 year degree, but you do need the skills to make a living. Welding & carpentry are offered along with a full college prep program. I ask my students questions about their future; I don't offer advice, but I do plant seeds to sprout in their minds later on.

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Just now, britomart said:

Berkely was wrong for cancelling offensive speakers. It was a digrace that the cradle of the free speech movement cancelled speakers that would offend people. I was deeply disappointed. I think Milo Y and Ann Coulter are disgusting vile racist pigs. Pure evil but they should be allowed to speak. College is where you go to learn and have your views challenged, not be protected from views that are different. 

I can see both sides of it, honestly. I wouldn't want to be associated with hosting either of those...individuals. I wouldn't want any of the resources I support to go to their pockets or promoting their disgusting pov.

You're guaranteed freedom of speech, not an audience. I'll defend your right to be a jerk, but I'm not going to stick around to listen to your blather.

Personally, I think they were wrong to agree to host them in the first place.

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Berkeley historically embraces all views. Political correctness has never been part of the landscape. This new turn of events is a total 180. And so not socially healthy. 

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39 minutes ago, ImpishMom said:

I can see both sides of it, honestly. I wouldn't want to be associated with hosting either of those...individuals. I wouldn't want any of the resources I support to go to their pockets or promoting their disgusting pov.

You're guaranteed freedom of speech, not an audience. I'll defend your right to be a jerk, but I'm not going to stick around to listen to your blather.

Personally, I think they were wrong to agree to host them in the first place.

I was under the impression that the conservative student group on campus invited them to speak, not exactly the university itself.  If the liberal group(s) get to host speakers on campus then the conservative groups should be able to as well.  I don't know if I would go to see Milo and Ann speak or not.  I might go, not because I agree with them, but because I like to keep myself informed about what people with other perspectives are saying.  I would have to fight my urge to vomit during the speech but I might go to hear what they say.  (I try to listen to conservative radio a couple of times a week and try to watch Fox News at least once a week too.)  I might even do my own form of protest during the speech.  When I was in college we had a controversial guest/speaker at convocation one year.  As he walked in the procession to where the convocation ceremony was happening a bunch of us turned our backs to him as he passed.  

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14 minutes ago, Mame925 said:

Berkeley historically embraces all views. Political correctness has never been part of the landscape. This new turn of events is a total 180. And so not socially healthy. 

I think the thing is, as a Canadian, we actually have hate speech laws. Milo et al, would not have been granted a public arena to speak in. In fact, there have been folks refused entry to Canada based on these laws.

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/section-319.html

9 minutes ago, britomart said:

I was under the impression that the conservative student group on campus invited them to speak, not exactly the university itself.  If the liberal group(s) get to host speakers on campus then the conservative groups should be able to as well.  I don't know if I would go to see Milo and Ann speak or not.  I might go, not because I agree with them, but because I like to keep myself informed about what people with other perspectives are saying.  I would have to fight my urge to vomit during the speech but I might go to hear what they say.  (I try to listen to conservative radio a couple of times a week and try to watch Fox News at least once a week too.)  I might even do my own form of protest during the speech.  When I was in college we had a controversial guest/speaker at convocation one year.  As he walked in the procession to where the convocation ceremony was happening a bunch of us turned our backs to him as he passed.  

 

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