• Announcements

    • LatoyaADMIN

      What to do if you get a "Wrong Password" message   01/21/16

      You must reset your password (even if you know it's the right one) before you can sign into the community. Thanks to the upgrade, there's an issue with passwords and signing in. The good news is that you can click here: http://community.grandparents.com/index.php?/lostpassword/ to change your password (it'll let you reuse your old one). If you can't reach the email address connected to your account then please contact the admin at latoya@grandparents.com and I'll help you sort it out. 
    • LatoyaADMIN

      Anonymous posting is back   01/21/16

      We've removed the extra step that required you to go to the full-page editor to access the anonymous post option. Now, you can reply to a post and toggle the button to post anonymous (see photo below).    Read more on anonymous posting here:    In short, the mods can see who posts as anonymous, we moderate anonymous posts the same as revealed posts, you can reply anonymously to your own topic, you may report anonymous posts.
RoseRed135

How do you define "sexual harassment?"

60 posts in this topic

Given the growing number of sexual allegations against men/public figures both in Hollywood and the government, the question arises as to just what is sexual harassment. No doubt, most people would start by saying, "unwanted touch..." but how does a man know it's "unwanted" unless he has tried it once and been told "no?" As such, does that mean an undesirable act has to have been committed more than once to be considered "harassment?" Is there a minimum number of times where it crosses the line from "annoying" to "harassment?" Are there cases where an action qualifies as harassment even if it only happens once, simply b/c it's "inappropriate" (he and/or she is married or she's underage, etc)?

Does the age of the perpetrator make a difference? Or the situation? Is a teenage boy trying to "cop a feel" on a date just "being normal," while a grown man trying the same w/ a colleague during business hours is "inappropriate" and committing sexual harassment? Or??

Thoughts?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

According to the University of Michigan Sexual harassment is defined as unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical conduct of a sexual nature.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Laura62 said:

According to the University of Michigan Sexual harassment is defined as unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical conduct of a sexual nature.

Welcome, Laura! Glad you decided to come in and talk w/ us! Good to see, also, that you're becoming an active poster!

Thanks for the definition of "sexual harassment!." It will help further this discussion.

I'm still wondering, though, people, at what point does sexual conduct, whether physical or verbal, slip into the "unwelcome" category?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For sure if one party has said "NO" or "STOP" and removed herself from the offender and is pursued from there, it is harassment.

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It appears most women have encountered unsolicited, sexual conduct -- as have plenty of men- Has anyone from any area of the adult entertainment industry come forward? Be it a guilty party or individuals who encountered unsolicited, sexual conduct? I think it would be enlightening to hear from people in that particular industry-

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ah yes, adult "entertainment" would be interesting and maybe hard to prove or is an allegation all it takes for termination?

Matt Lauer was fired from NBC just this morning over a sexual misconduct allegation.  Mr. Lauer’s termination was just the latest in a string of firings involving the very top stars in television news — coming after the terminations of Bill O’Reilly, from Fox News, last April and Charlie Rose, of CBS, earlier this month.

Edited by SueSTx

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Garrison Keillor from public radio in Minnesota ..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Careers are being destroyed over unproven accusations....what ever happened to 'innocent until proven guilty'? There is an ongoing investigation... If Keilor's version of events is even close to being accurate, there is a serious abuse of power...(and if that's his only transgression...)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I define it as unwelcome sexual conduct, and there is a subjective component to it, so what I find "sexual in nature" or that which crosses the line others may not and vice versa.   I am happy to see some of these sick perverts like Matt Lauer and Charlie Rose being called out and terminated.  I want to see more cleaning house not only to get rid of all these creeps but to also put people on notice that sexual harassment will not be tolerated - and this applies to women as well - as they harass too.  I also want to see some of these people jailed such as Harvey Weinstein and Kevin Spacey as their actions appeared to have crossed into criminal, and they are not above the law.  They all disgust me!

3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Criminal absolutely needs to be prosecuted....

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BUT...are people accused of sexual harassment automatically pronounced guilty unless proven innocent?  Have all those accused and this month admitted to their guilt?

Any other crime, you are presumed innocent until a court of your peers finds you guilty.

I'm not saying I believe anyone is innocent, but what if an accuser is proved to be a false witness....what then?  We do hear of mothers being caught lying about the father in divorce cases when accusing him of molesting their children.  Can in happen in a harassment case also?

Even with Bill Cosby with so much smoke, there must be at least a spark.

 

Edited by SueSTx

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/28/2017 at 11:56 PM, RoseRed135 said:
Given the growing number of sexual allegations against men/public figures both in Hollywood and the government, the question arises as to just what is sexual harassment. No doubt, most people would start by saying, "unwanted touch..." but how does a man  OR WOMAN, most people don't care to be subjected to horrible behavior by women either. know it's "unwanted" unless he has tried it once and been told "no?" Their parents taught them to keep their words/hands/body parts to themselves without an invite.  As such, does that mean an undesirable act has to have been committed more than once to be considered "harassment?" NO Is there a minimum number of times where it crosses the line from "annoying" to "harassment?" FIRST TIME Are there cases where an action qualifies as harassment even if it only happens once, simply b/c it's "inappropriate" (he and/or she is married or she's underage, etc)?YES
Does the age of the perpetrator make a difference? Or the situation? Is a teenage boy trying to "cop a feel" on a date just "being normal," Not normal by any stretch, never has been, never will be while a grown man trying the same w/ a colleague during business hours  Any hours, 24-7, is "inappropriate" and committing sexual harassment? YES any unwanted behavior, forced on someone without their explicit consent, is unacceptable harassment.

No means no. Better -- ask for the affirmative "Yes means Yes".

 

Edited by JanelleK
add a word

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...but how does a man  OR WOMAN, most people don't care to be subjected to horrible behavior by women either. know it's "unwanted" unless he has tried it once and been told "no?" Their parents taught them to keep their words/hands/body parts to themselves without an invite

Thanks, Janelle, for reminding us that this can apply to women, as well!

But does our society give out mixed messages? For example, take the famous incident/photo of the sailor kissing an unsuspecting woman on V-J Day:

http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/10/us/greta-friedman-iconic-kissing-vj-day-photo-obit-irpt/index.html

I've rarely heard of anyone saying, "He was wrong to do that," either then (as far as I know - it was before my time, of course :) ) or now. Is a kiss "different," people? Or is it "different" b/c they were celebrating? How do you (general) talk about this to young people?

Also, in the past, I remember some girls/young women who were annoyed if their date asked if he could kiss them goodnight or whatever. "Don't ask me, just do it!" was their attitude. (IDK how widespread this attitude was.) My DDs have told me some of their friends had the same idea when they were teens, IDK if any girls/young women think this way today. But I'm wondering if our society needs to be clearer w/ both boys/men and girls/women about where the (sexual) boundaries are.

Not saying that any of this excuses the (often outrageous) behavior of the increasing number of grown men being called out for sexual harassment now. (Some of it is so OTT, a kid would know better, IMO!) Here I'm just asking about the messages we send the young...

Edited by RoseRed135
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is an objective component to sexual harassment.  A person may believe the conduct was hostile, abusive, or offensive, but a reasonable person must objectively believe the conduct was hostile, abusive, or offensive for it to pass the test.  Also, an employer is liable if they knew about the harassment and did nothing.  For instance, with Matt Lauer, who appears to be a serial weirdo perverted harasser, really, NBC didn't know what he was up to?  Give me a break!  They were trying to protect their Golden Boy anchor.  If I am a victim of Matt, "the Creep" Lauer, I of course go after him, but go after NBC too.  This needs to be stopped at the top! 

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, BSW said:

There is an objective component to sexual harassment.  A person may believe the conduct was hostile, abusive, or offensive, but a reasonable person must objectively believe the conduct was hostile, abusive, or offensive for it to pass the test. 

 I think this ^ is a good way to look at the differences of opinions surrounding what is and what isn't harassment. Some people object to being touched, hugged, kissed, pinched, groped, stared at, body judged, or propositioned by others. I do. And I expect others to respect my feelings. To that end I'm fairly chilly/reserved/standoffish. I stand back, move away, put my hand out (to shake), gently push, and say "please don't". To my upset, those approaches don't work all the time in all situations.

To Rose's nurse photo: I believe I would have been appalled had that person kissed me. However, it was out in bright public, it doesn't appear he was groping or harassing. I doubt he was doing anything other than acting out in his excitement. Objectively it doesn't seem like that kiss met the hostile/offensive test. Many kisses would.

18 hours ago, RoseRed135 said:

Is a kiss "different," people? Or is it "different" b/c they were celebrating? How do you (general) talk about this to young people?

 I'm wondering if our society needs to be clearer w/ both boys/men and girls/women about where the (sexual) boundaries are.

Talks to young people about unwanted touching, groping, all the rest of the issue?

We had to have that chat after Billy Bush hot mic incident surfaced last October. The big boys were with us out of town, the talk fell to my husband. He did a pretty good job, from what I could tell. However, it didn't end with that one chat, the touching issue came up and was addressed again this summer (one of the big boys saw my husband hands where they shouldn't have been, hugging on me). In my opinion, a reasonable husband listens when his wife says "honey, they're lurking around here, somewhere". Which leads me to think - oh well, my silly husband just gets to keep explaining difficult stuff, repeatedly.

ETA: For us, we tell the kids to ask questions and listen for affirmative answers.

Edited by JanelleK
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, JanelleK said:

To Rose's nurse photo: I believe I would have been appalled had that person kissed me. However, it was out in bright public, it doesn't appear he was groping or harassing. I doubt he was doing anything other than acting out in his excitement. Objectively it doesn't seem like that kiss met the hostile/offensive test. Many kisses would.

I think this example belongs in an entirely different category...this was the aftermath from the announcement that the war in Europe was over. The same goes for the scene in the movie "Major League" when the Indians won the division pennant...strangers in a bar are hugging randomly from the overwhelming excitement...no offense meant.

My sister told me a story the other day...as an older teen she & a friend were walking through the local mall when a 14yo(+/-) boy was walking through randomly grabbing women's breasts...he grabbed her and she decked him....everyone just kept walking...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Mame925 said:

I think this example belongs in an entirely different category...this was the aftermath from the announcement that the war in Europe was over. The same goes for the scene in the movie "Major League" when the Indians won the division pennant...strangers in a bar are hugging randomly from the overwhelming excitement...no offense meant.

I believe one facet of the post is that no offense can be meant - yet people can still be rightly offended/upset.

Not everybody can put up with things that offend them and just move along. I believe I wouldn't have purposefully put myself in the nurse situation, but I also think I'd have been upset by that man's actions. Offended? Not really. Upset enough to do anything? No. But upset nonetheless, I HATE my space violated by random strangers.

This is all on that list of things that rightly bother some more than others.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So there's a litmus test - "hostile/abusive/offensive?"

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, RoseRed135 said:

So there's a litmus test - "hostile/abusive/offensive?"

 

Yes, but it's personal and different for everyone...that makes judgement difficult.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, RoseRed135 said:

So there's a litmus test - "hostile/abusive/offensive?"

Yes, but everybody is different. Look at what people put up with without batting an eye - stuff that would make others nuts. That's why asking and receiving an affirmative answer is so important - clarity.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And yes, a little googling led me to articles that show that sailor, George Mendonsa, did, in fact kiss the "nurse" (actually a dental assistant")m Greta Zimmer, out of the excitement that the war was over, For example, an  online NY Post article from June 17, 2012 says:

He’d watched on the morning of May 11 as two Japanese kamikaze planes, one after the other, smashed into the nearby USS Bunker Hill, setting off a series of explosions and killing 346 sailors (43 bodies were never recovered). George helped pull hundreds of men, some horribly burned, out of the water, and watched with awe as nurses went to work on them.

So on this joyous and unbelievable afternoon, George....grabbed the first nurse he saw, spun her around, dipped her and kissed her.

I also found that, apparently, Greta wasn't too happy about it at the time:

The kiss did kind of bother someone else, though: the woman in the nurse’s uniform, Greta Zimmer, who wasn’t even a nurse. She was a 21-year-old dental assistant from Queens, who, having heard rumors about the end of the war, walked over to Times Square from her office on Lexington Avenue....

She isn’t sure how long she was standing there; maybe minutes. “And then I was grabbed,” she says. “That man was very strong. I wasn’t kissing him. He was kissing me.”

Then again, a CNN online article from  Sept 11, 2016 shows that she eventually came to understand why he did it:

It was more of a jubilant act that he didn't have to go back... The reason he grabbed somebody dressed like a nurse, was that he felt so very grateful to the nurses who took care of the wounded," she told Veterans History Project.
 
So, I suppose, it doesn't objectively count as harassment. But, IMO, as Janelle suggests, it may take several conversations to make all this clear to teenagers.
 
I'm also wondering if era and timing have something to do w/ it.  As stated in the Post article:
 
Back then, it was just one of those things: “Obviously, to do that today — it’s not such a good idea,” says Lawrence Verria, co-author of “The Kissing Sailor.” “But in Times Square, 1945, they hear the war’s over — it’s not such a bad idea.”

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/29/2017 at 6:27 PM, SueSTx said:

BUT...are people accused of sexual harassment automatically pronounced guilty unless proven innocent?  Have all those accused and this month admitted to their guilt?

None of them has admitted guilt, that I know of. But if you google "senator steps down," you'll see that 2 accused senators have stepped down from leadership positions. That's not necessarily an admission of guilt, of course.

Any other crime, you are presumed innocent until a court of your peers finds you guilty.

Legally, of course, they're innocent-till-proven-guilty. But one problem I see w/ sexual harassment cases, especially when they're public, is that the accused can quickly become "guilty" in the court of public opinion. Even if a person is proven innocent, a taint may remain in some people's minds.

I'm not saying I believe anyone is innocent, but what if an accuser is proved to be a false witness....what then?  We do hear of mothers being caught lying about the father in divorce cases when accusing him of molesting their children.  Can in happen in a harassment case also?

No doubt. Also, I imagine that, unfortunately, some cases boil down to "he said/she said."

But it's also a concern, IMO, that, apparently, some of this harassment (if real) has been going on a long time and no one was speaking out, or, at least not very effectively. I'm glad they are speaking out now though, and I think each case gives more victims the courage to step forward.

Also, as DH says, one of the best outcomes of the current string of charges may be that it prevents others from committing sexual harassment. I hope so.

Even with Bill Cosby with so much smoke, there must be at least a spark.

ETA: FWIW... There also seems to be a certain amount of, "Well, I didn't do all of that, but I did some of it and I'm sorry" on the part of some of the accused, such as Matt Lauer:

http://money.cnn.com/2017/11/30/media/matt-lauer-apology/index.html

 

 

Edited by RoseRed135
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Mame925 said:

Yes, but it's personal and different for everyone...that makes judgement difficult.

But BSW suggests there needs to be an objective standard ("standard" is my word, not hers). Does this apply only when a case goes to court?

5 hours ago, JanelleK said:

Yes, but everybody is different. Look at what people put up with without batting an eye - stuff that would make others nuts. That's why asking and receiving an affirmative answer is so important - clarity.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The issue to me though is why wait 20 or so years to voice an outcry when harassment takes place?  Back in the late 90's after the Thomas/Hill spectacle was televised, I experienced something that made even me uncomfortable.  

I had been exposed to 'off colored' jokes occasionally in my 50 years of life, mostly by hubby that would share an amusing story occasionally, but also through an office full of women in the late 60's who thought nothing of sharing a dirty joke.

We had a new delivery man at work.  The first day, he shared a comical joke that was really funny.  We did laugh.  The next week, he shared an off colored joke and we walked off.  The third week he told a nasty Xrated joke and I said, "That is not acceptable here."  Right after he left, I called into the office he delivered out of and reported him to the dispatcher on duty.  The next time the salesman came calling, I was told that the truck driver had been "fired" that day because that was not acceptable around any of the ladies he delivered to.  I was the only one to call in but the warehouse workers "knew" how he was with them.

My question is...why did these women in the entertainment industry and the government feel that they could not complain when little ole me out in the boondocks knew this behavior wasn't acceptable and put a stop to it?  I never even reported it to my boss at my job.  I handled it myself.  I was the one with a working relationship with the company he worked for.

Edited by SueSTx
3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What we aren't seeing (or are we?), people in high positions vs people in high positions- Y/N?

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now