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RoseRed135

How do you define "sexual harassment?"

76 posts in this topic

8 minutes ago, ImpishMom said:

I swear, the one thing that makes my temper redline is seeing men whine, "So, now I can get in trouble for hugging someone!" and similar comments.

Dude, you NEVER had the right to hug whomever you choose. That you consider a woman's right to bodily autonomy an infringement on YOUR freedom says you are a HUGE part of the freaking problem!

Women have led men to believe that not only do they have the right to touch them but welcomed it- Not all women, of course- 

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3 minutes ago, Komorebi said:

Women have led men to believe that not only do they have the right to touch them but welcomed it- Not all women, of course- 

I suspect that's not quite right.

Women, historically, have not had the right to say no. They were property in many, if not most, cultures.

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1 minute ago, ImpishMom said:

I suspect that's not quite right.

Women, historically, have not had the right to say no. They were property in many, if not most, cultures.

Its fact- Women have done as I described above- Not all women, of course- 

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18 minutes ago, Komorebi said:

Its fact- Women have done as I described above- Not all women, of course- 

How can women teach men that it's welcome, or okay, when they didn't have the right to say no? It wasn't so very long ago that husbands 'couldn't' rape their wives.

And, to add, it doesn't MATTER if 60 women say yes, and actively encourage men to touch them. One person's consent only counts for THEM. Not for an entire gender.

And therein lies the problem, that some men seem to think that because whoever didn't object, they have the right to touch whomever they please, and the one that tells them no is the problem, rather than them assuming they have the right to impose themselves on whomever they wish.

Edited by ImpishMom

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11 minutes ago, ImpishMom said:

How can women teach men that it's welcome, or okay, when they didn't have the right to say no? It wasn't so very long ago that husbands 'couldn't' rape their wives.

And, to add, it doesn't MATTER if 60 women say yes, and actively encourage men to touch them. One person's consent only counts for THEM. Not for an entire gender.

And therein lies the problem, that some men seem to think that because whoever didn't object, they have the right to touch whomever they please, and the one that tells them no is the problem, rather than them assuming they have the right to impose themselves on whomever they wish.

Those who didnt object have left a lasting impression- Those who flat out refused left a lasting impressions too- The "men will be men" attitude that women fueled continues- It was fueled for many, both sexes, by parents as well- It seems obscene to nurture such a thing and yet ..

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On 05/12/2017 at 0:01 PM, Mame925 said:

The Bill Cosby case(s) intrigue me...I have no doubt he is a serial cheater/womanizer. Not entirely sure he is as guilty as his "victims" claim. He probably did coerce and made promises he may not have followed through to keep them...who knows.

Why need roofies if the women are willing?

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12 minutes ago, Komorebi said:

Those who didnt object have left a lasting impression- Those who flat out refused left a lasting impressions too- The "men will be men" attitude that women fueled continues- It was fueled for many, both sexes, by parents as well- It seems obscene to nurture such a thing and yet ..

Sorry, but I'm seeing this as blaming women for the actions of men.

Men are completely, totally, and utterly responsible for what they do.

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10 minutes ago, ImpishMom said:

Men are completely, totally, and utterly responsible for what they do.

Agreed.

But, for example, a couple of those women at my hairdresser's have DSs. If they're teaching their DSs that a lot of this behavior is "normal" and that the women coming forward are "overreacting" (another word I heard during that conversation) or "just out for money," then their DSs might think such behavior is ok.  So yes, some women, bear part of the responsibility for the situation overall, IMO. In the end,  each of their DSs (or DBs or whoever) is accountable for his own choices, no doubt. But, IMO, women like these help to perpetuate the atmosphere in which sexual harassment occurs.

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6 minutes ago, ImpishMom said:

Sorry, but I'm seeing this as blaming women for the actions of men.

Men are completely, totally, and utterly responsible for what they do.

As are women- Why would they not be?

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4 hours ago, Komorebi said:

I see both- I see a woman being violated and an iconic photograph -- also see it as art / photojournalism- 

This one is a context issue....a major war in Europe was just declared "OVER"...in his excitement he overstepped a social boundary with no malicious intent....I might have hugged a stranger when my son came home from his second tour in Iraq...its' big emotional and life changing news. In the woman's defense, I'd not like being kissed by a stranger either.

A coworker running his hand across my butt has he passed by at the company Christmas party was disgusting, I was more puzzled than offended. I told the coworker/friend I was standing with when it happened. She agreed he was being creepy, but neither of us did anything about it. It wasn't repeated.

The jerk who groped my butt on the beach path got a nasty surprise....I was on my bike, he was walking from the opposite direction so just took advantage...didn't realize DH was a few yards behind me and saw the whole thing....purposely ran into the guy with his bike..."Oh, so sorry....keep your hands off my wife"

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One of the biggest problems with sexual harassment is the isolation of the victim. WHOMEVER that may be. 

I don't say that tongue in cheek - I say it in all seriousness. From both sides of the coin. 

First, I say that from the perspective of the true victim. When I was in high school, I worked after school/evenings in a local pharmacy as a cashier. We had a manager and an assistant manager. The cashiers were primarily young and female at night. During the day, the cashiers were equally male and female, over 30, and most had been there for ages. The manager worked days. The assistant manager nights. I can remember this clear as day even though it's been over 25 years ago. I worked there from 16-18. While I was 16 and even 17, the assistant manager was nice enough, smiled and lightly flirted though I didn't actually recognize it at the time. The older girls were fending off his advances if they so much as went to the bathroom in the back. He would corner them at the back and try to coerce them in to any number of things for raises and perks. I never saw any of it myself but kept wondering why night shift couldn't seem to keep cashiers. But holy hell after I turned 18 he turned his advances on me. It lasted about a week before I truly got scared. I told my parents what was happening, quit, and filed a complaint against him on the way out the door.  I was asked to testify against him several months later. I didn't end up having to because they pulled the camera footage and could see for themselves. He was immediately fired. But each one of us quit a good job because we were scared. We didn't know it was happening to anyone else. He had the advantage. And he used it. 

Second, from the perspective of a person wrongly accused. My oldest dd had a teacher that she LOVED. He was a fantastic teacher, a favorite at the school. He managed to help kids actually understand the material rather than teaching to the test and pushing them through. A girl, who had a crush on him, and who had clearly not gotten the attention that she wanted, started claiming that he had made advances towards her. It was QUICKLY brought to light that her story didn't add up. The lawsuit her parents were quick to file was dropped even more quickly. She would claim things happened when there were numerous witnesses saying he wasn't even there,  claim he texted her or called her when phone records proved otherwise. She even came back to school bragging about how she was going to get him fired and she made it all up. (my oldest DD heard this with her own ears). The students were up in arms, very upset. But the damage was already done. He was humiliated and once you get branded for something like that, it's hard to escape. He ended up quitting and moving out of state - not because he did anything wrong, but because he couldn't get away from the suspicion that he *might* do something. 

In both of these situations, the victim is isolated, be it the victim of the sexual harassment or the victim of false accusations. 

I think it is awesome that people are banding together to stand up to the harassers!! Those who have truly perpetuated these acts should most certainly be made to face them and pay for their acts. And not with these people in particular that we are talking about, but I do have concerns that this will go to the other extreme and start making it easier to accuse people who have done nothing wrong. We need to punish people guilty of the acts, but be careful not to start unwarranted witch hunts in the process.

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Among other things, it's interesting, IMO, to see how much the current issues are raising awareness and the various directions that takes...

For example, YDD and my granddolls have always loved the song, "Baby, It's Cold Outside." They often sing along to it in the car, etc. But now YDD is concerned that it "romanticizes" or "makes light of" a guy pressuring a girl into doing something she really doesn't want to do/staying at his home. She tells me she made a point of letting her kids know this behavior on the part of the guy is "wrong."

I pointed out that it was just intended to be a cute, humorous song, but she argued that this is the problem. Thinking it over, since then, I find myself agreeing. The topic came up again today. In our conversation,  I mentioned to YDD it just shows that  back when that song was recorded,  this form of sexual harassment was accepted on some level. It may have been very upsetting to a young woman that experienced it - and perhaps her family, as well. But in popular culture it was still "ok" to portray it w/ humor. In today's climate, I don't think anyone would dare put out a song like that.

Meanwhile, YDD said that she still likes the song, but that realizing "what it represents" has somewhat "spoiled it for (her)."

Yeah, I kind of have the same dual feeling about it now myself. I'll certainly never be able to listen to it the same way.

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On 11/28/2017 at 8:30 AM, SueSTx said:

For sure if one party has said "NO" or "STOP" and removed herself from the offender and is pursued from there, it is harassment.

No, it is rape!

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On 11/29/2017 at 1:54 PM, Mame925 said:

Careers are being destroyed over unproven accusations....what ever happened to 'innocent until proven guilty'? There is an ongoing investigation... If Keilor's version of events is even close to being accurate, there is a serious abuse of power...(and if that's his only transgression...)

Expected better from you Mame925 :( 

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Chrissy3...how do you know that harassment resulted in a rape?

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22 minutes ago, SueSTx said:

Chrissy3...how do you know that harassment resulted in a rape?

SueSTx,

Based on your words, if one party said "NO" or "STOP" and is pursued from there what else would you call it? 

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2 hours ago, Chrissy3 said:

Expected better from you Mame925 :( 

Why do you say that? These situations deserve thorough investigation...and since it's all too common for BOTH parties to be less than forthcoming about intent and/or motive. Assuming someone is guilty is worse than false accusations.

2 hours ago, Chrissy3 said:

No, it is rape!

A stranger groping my butt on the beach is not rape. I saw it as creepy harassment and a crime of opportunity. 

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1 hour ago, Mame925 said:

Why do you say that? These situations deserve thorough investigation...and since it's all too common for BOTH parties to be less than forthcoming about intent and/or motive. Assuming someone is guilty is worse than false accusations.

A stranger groping my butt on the beach is not rape. I saw it as creepy harassment and a crime of opportunity. 

Obviously, I didn't "like" this post b/c I'm happy about these situations. I liked it b/c I feel it helps to clarify a couple of issues. One is that as horrible and wrong as sexual harassment is, the legal standard still is "innocent until proven guilty." While I lean toward believing the women who make these accusations, IMO, jumping to conclusions is never in the best interest of justice.

Granted, these allegations can be difficult to prove or disprove. So I can understand why some employers fire someone if they feel they have enough evidence.

But perhaps, I've just muddied that issue up again... sigh... No doubt, it's a tricky topic.

The second issue is clearer, IMO. Whether or not "harassment" = "rape" depends, I think, on what the perpetrator did/tried to do or, IOWs, what the victim said "No" to. If, say, a man keeps grabbing a woman's breast despite her saying "'No' or 'Stop,'" or pushing his hand away, that's sexual harassment in my book, no doubt. (Same w/ Mame's example of unwanted butt-groping.) But as obnoxious as it is, to my understanding, it doesn't reach the level or rape.

Edited by RoseRed135
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I’ve also seen both sides of this coin, but I somehow doubt that an accomplished actor or actress would lie about something like this fully knowing the press would be tearing them apart if they were found to have lied. 

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Crissy,

Rape is a type of sexual assault usually involving sexual intercourse or other forms of sexual penetration carried out against a person without that person's consent.

Sexual harassment is bullying or coercion of a sexual nature, or the unwelcome or inappropriate promise of rewards in exchange for sexual favors. In most modern legal contexts, sexual harassment is illegal. As defined by the US Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC), "It is unlawful to harass a person (an applicant or employee) because of that person's sex."

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On 12/18/2017 at 11:43 PM, Mame925 said:

Why do you say that? These situations deserve thorough investigation...and since it's all too common for BOTH parties to be less than forthcoming about intent and/or motive. Assuming someone is guilty is worse than false accusations.

A stranger groping my butt on the beach is not rape. I saw it as creepy harassment and a crime of opportunity. 

Mame925,

I agree with you but somehow my words came out wrong :( 

I read "if one party said "NO" or "STOP" and is pursued from there" to mean the result was rape. Sorry for the confusion. 

Chrissy 

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I was in Grief therapy because of my DD being killed. I was there for  3 yrs so she got into a lot of my life.

As we talked about sexual molestation she said, "Any contact with your body without your permission is molesting you. "

I then realized as I was as a child and young girl I had been molested MANY times and didn't even know it was considered that.

My Dad confronted  1 man as I was about 10  and threatened him.  Two I handled myself. One at work I reported and my boss told me to change my lunch hour when he was visiting our Bank Branch for a week.  I asked him WHY I worked there full time, he was visiting, he had no real good answer. I changed my lunch hour. I refused to ever be alone w/him, even getting on an elevator was a NO NO even with others on it. A man Teller gave me the finger in front of my Customers at a Drive Thru, my husband quietly handled that. But when an Officer asked if I would have reported anyone else,  I said, "YES  even you." They did nothing to him. I have been grabbed, groped, kissed so many times and just never thought about it as being molested.   

The thing w/molesting or harassment, if it's someone you know and like as a person or friend you let it slide maybe once, but someone you don't like then he's reported. It's a slippery slope.

Rape is actual sex act, molesting/harassment  is touching.  I have 1st hand knowledge of both. 

I just can't believe if more than 1 female accuses you it not to be true. I can't believe some in the Government resign, some don't. I can't believe some in the Government stand behind a man accused by more than one female. I can't believe someone accused, favors others to resign yet not others. I can't believe where our entire Government has gone with just plain SEX.  I myself am as a molested girl at the time, many yrs ago STILL REMEMBER EVERY BIT OF WHAT HAPPENED TO ME.  How dare anyone tell me or any girl or woman it was too many years ago to remember. 

Yes, unwanted touching is Molested/ Harassment , and Shame on Women who Shout False Accusations. That is what makes Rape and Molested accusations so Hard to Deal With.

I say molested, some may say harassment. 

All of this is   IMO.

Edited by godsgifts
change wording

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@godsgifts- So deeply sorry about what happened to you. Hopefully, the current issues will open people's eyes up more to these things.

Edited by RoseRed135
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RoseRed135    Thank you. 

We can only hope. It is so hard to be able to prove he said she said, but the ever lasting effects stays with you always no matter what. I just don't understand why or how the Government can be so blind to so much of this, I have to turn the news off. 

My husband is well aware as to why he is the only one who ever kisses me on the lips. My children a peck and he and no one else. If anyone tries such as a good family friend I always turn my cheek. I know for me and my DD it has had every lasting effects on both. That is why it boils my blood when  I hear a person say, '"Oh it's been so many yrs now how can she remember?"  I was 8 or 10 and remember ever last detail. I only speak of this hoping some on this sight  will  be able to see a little more about  molesting and rape.   You touch you molest, you force sex, you rape. 

May those arguing about it never have it happen to them or their daughters.

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My first clear memory is just before I turned 3...I even remember what dress I was wearing....and it's not abuse related...My sister, then 5 remember the event the exact same way...and it's just a snapshot of our life.

A major traumatic event such as one described above would be horrifyingly burned into an 8yo mind...maybe not hovering on the surface (repressed), but still there and affecting your life. 

@godsgifts, I am truly sorry this happened to you. 

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